FIA Thread

[Big Tea]

Its not just defining , or redefining the rules, its making sure they are followed in a consistent fashion.
Stewards, teams and drivers should all know exactly is going to happen on any set situation, and if it is not a set situation, the race should be paused.
Yes, we will get all sorts of problems about what can and should/can not be done during the pause, but that is different argument.

[basti313]

There are interesting comparisons once can make between the DTM season finale and the F1 season finale when it comes to the rules of racing, good stewarding, public relations, and statements made by the bosses after the fact.

???
The core issue in the DTM finale was dirty driving by one driver and dirty politics by one team. That was just then accompanied by a weak stewarding call, but the stewards were not the reason for the trouble.

I did neither see dirty driving in the F1 finale not weak stewarding calls. One can argue about the first lap of course over pages, but it is not crystal clear wrong like the penalty in DTM. And one can argue about the SC rule bending or not, but except for childish team radios, there was no execution of dirty politics by the teams.
I think this is not comparable.

Its not just defining , or redefining the rules, its making sure they are followed in a consistent fashion.
Stewards, teams and drivers should all know exactly is going to happen on any set situation, and if it is not a set situation, the race should be paused.
Yes, we will get all sorts of problems about what can and should/can not be done during the pause, but that is different argument.

I hate pauses. I do not want pauses. Every red flag is killing the race for 15-30min extra without reason.
Of course you need time to make descissions. It might be black and white in some mind, but in neutral position it is not and putting out a redflag once something is grey is no solution, just making it worse.
You will need stewards who decide a situation and interpret the rules, that is the same in every sports and every legal stuff in real live. There will always be discussion over pages....as long as we do not have more easy rules on leaving space.

[Big Tea]

There are interesting comparisons once can make between the DTM season finale and the F1 season finale when it comes to the rules of racing, good stewarding, public relations, and statements made by the bosses after the fact.

???
The core issue in the DTM finale was dirty driving by one driver and dirty politics by one team. That was just then accompanied by a weak stewarding call, but the stewards were not the reason for the trouble.

I did neither see dirty driving in the F1 finale not weak stewarding calls. One can argue about the first lap of course over pages, but it is not crystal clear wrong like the penalty in DTM. And one can argue about the SC rule bending or not, but except for childish team radios, there was no execution of dirty politics by the teams.
I think this is not comparable.

Its not just defining , or redefining the rules, its making sure they are followed in a consistent fashion.
Stewards, teams and drivers should all know exactly is going to happen on any set situation, and if it is not a set situation, the race should be paused.
Yes, we will get all sorts of problems about what can and should/can not be done during the pause, but that is different argument.

I hate pauses. I do not want pauses. Every red flag is killing the race for 15-30min extra without reason.
Of course you need time to make descissions. It might be black and white in some mind, but in neutral position it is not and putting out a redflag once something is grey is no solution, just making it worse.
You will need stewards who decide a situation and interpret the rules, that is the same in every sports and every legal stuff in real live. There will always be discussion over pages....as long as we do not have more easy rules on leaving space.

So are you happy with the end of the last race, or would you have preferred a 'clean' restart? (remember winners of this time could likely be losers next time)
As I said, there will be no end to the arguments of who 'got away with' things, but it will all be above board.

Edit, admittedly it would have been fine had the rules been followed, but we would not be discussing it now

[AeroDynamic]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/60160969

Formula 1 is planning a new race-management structure in an attempt to avoid a repeat of the problems at last year's Abu Dhabi Grand Prix.

There is widespread acceptance across the sport that race director Michael Masi failed to follow the rules correctly during a late safety-car period in the title-deciding race.

Governing body the FIA has been seeking the teams' views on the matter.

sources have told BBC Sport that the FIA's plans are to introduce a series of safeguards that will leave the race director freer to make decisions in a calmer environment.

Many insiders admit that Masi made a series of operational errors in the closing laps at Yas Marina that were contrary to the rules and accepted protocols - and there remain serious questions about his future in the role.

say.

This is likely to include a barrier between that role and the teams to avoid the direct lobbying to which Masi was subjected from the team bosses of both Mercedes and Red Bull in Abu Dhabi.

Revisions to the operations of the stewards - who are independent of the race director and decide on penalties for breaches of the rules - are also being considered.

Removing Masi and finding a new race director is a recommendation some of the teams have made to FIA president Mohammed Ben Sulayem, BBC Sport has learned.

Some senior insiders say they cannot see how Masi can credibly remain in his role into another season, arguing not only that Abu Dhabi fatally undermined his credibility, but that the errors he made there were merely the biggest and latest of a series over the course of the 2021 season and before.

And high-level sources say that the most likely scenario is that a new race director will be installed for the 2022 season.

[Stu]

As it’s the *start of the year I’m sure many of use have work objectives being set for the year ahead, with that in mind what objectives would we all like to see from the Race Director in 2022?

1. Track limits, the white lines are the white lines.
2. No forcing another driver off track, if you lock up and force another driver off track tough luck, you should be in control of your car at all times…
3. Safety car - all lapped cars let through or non, not some and at the discretion of race director
4. No penalties can be served under safety car, virtual safety car or red flag (Verstappen in SA)
5. If it’s not safe to run, it’s not safe to run. Spa 2021

Anyone have any others?

1. I would tend to agree with this, reinforced with a ‘hard limit’ of some kind (gravel, sausage kerb, saw-tooth kerb, ‘wall’) a maximum of one cars width from the track. Ideally, a position monitor loop around the track perimeter would be the safest method, with penalties applied for exceeding limits. This has been discussed previously.
2. Agreed
3. I fail to understand why cars are allowed to unlap themselves (either during SC periods or red flag stoppages). Lapped cars should drop back through the pack and take up running order if it is deemed necessary to move them at all.
4. Agreed, I would extend this to not allowing pit-stops of any nature while on a safety car lap.
5. Agreed, if after starting a race behind the safety car conditions prove to be unraceable without the presence of the SC, ‘race abandoned’ should be the call. If a race is forced to be abandoned in this manner after starting ‘naturally’, half points should be awarded.

[Ryar]

As it’s the *start of the year I’m sure many of use have work objectives being set for the year ahead, with that in mind what objectives would we all like to see from the Race Director in 2022?

1. Track limits, the white lines are the white lines.
2. No forcing another driver off track, if you lock up and force another driver off track tough luck, you should be in control of your car at all times…
3. Safety car - all lapped cars let through or non, not some and at the discretion of race director
4. No penalties can be served under safety car, virtual safety car or red flag (Verstappen in SA)
5. If it’s not safe to run, it’s not safe to run. Spa 2021

Anyone have any others?

Let me add a few more. These are necessities, but currently aren't rules.
1. Close the pit entry for VSC and SC. This has been cause of unfair advantage for slower car.
2. No change of tyres/No Repairs in Red Flag situation in races. Bring cars under parc ferme in red flag.
3. Allowance for Engine/Gearbox change without penalty in case of crashes if the stewards deem the driver impacted has no fault.
4. Clear and unbiased application of penalties, regardless of whether the driver is a backmarker or championship contender. Stop the BS of "we do not want to interefere in the championship fight".
5. Race Director/Stewards to clearly explain what is acceptable and what is not to drivers in racing situations, in their thursday briefing. Clear definition of "driver alongside" without ambiguities to ensure a driver is not pushed off the race track.

[Just_a_fan]

3. I fail to understand why cars are allowed to unlap themselves (either during SC periods or red flag stoppages). Lapped cars should drop back through the pack and take up running order if it is deemed necessary to move them at all.

From memory, this was brought in back in the days when the cars couldn't overtake - pre DRS, of course. We had races where a back marker effectively decided the race because they were just too quick on the straights but too slow in the corners, so the leader was able to streak away in to the distance whilst the pack were tripping over people. But, as I say, this is trawling my memory and it's probably wrong.

[Just_a_fan]

As it’s the *start of the year I’m sure many of use have work objectives being set for the year ahead, with that in mind what objectives would we all like to see from the Race Director in 2022?

1. Track limits, the white lines are the white lines.
2. No forcing another driver off track, if you lock up and force another driver off track tough luck, you should be in control of your car at all times…
3. Safety car - all lapped cars let through or non, not some and at the discretion of race director
4. No penalties can be served under safety car, virtual safety car or red flag (Verstappen in SA)
5. If it’s not safe to run, it’s not safe to run. Spa 2021

Anyone have any others?

Let me add a few more. These are necessities, but currently aren't rules.
1. Close the pit entry for VSC and SC. This has been cause of unfair advantage for slower car.
2. No change of tyres/No Repairs in Red Flag situation in races. Bring cars under parc ferme in red flag.
3. Allowance for Engine/Gearbox change without penalty in case of crashes if the stewards deem the driver impacted has no fault.
4. Clear and unbiased application of penalties, regardless of whether the driver is a backmarker or championship contender. Stop the BS of "we do not want to interefere in the championship fight".
5. Race Director/Stewards to clearly explain what is acceptable and what is not to drivers in racing situations, in their thursday briefing. Clear definition of "driver alongside" without ambiguities to ensure a driver is not pushed off the race track.

1. It's part of strategy and "the show" but, if the cars are able to more closely race, they should close the pit lane as you say. Take it out of the strategy and make the cars race on track.
2. I can see both sides of the argument here. You and Stu come together and cause damage, littering the track with debris. Red flag used because it's too dangerous to clear the track. KeiKo403 and I, following you two, pick up damage from your debris. No fault of ours, but our cars are now potentially dangerous. So we're taken out of the race by you and Stu. That's a bit harsh. However, you and Stu can, at present, also fix your cars so you get a free pass for your moment of combined silliness on track. That's also unfair. No idea how this disparity could be dealt with, however. It's either "everyone fixes" or "no one fixes". To have the stewards saying "you can fix, you can't, you can fix, you can fix, you can't" might be too much for F1 to deal with.
3. A nice idea. It's very rare that the stewards say "one driver was wholly responsible". They usually say "predominantly responsible" even where it seems quite obvious to outsiders. And that would mean engine penalties still apply to the "innocent" party. Certainly, if two drivers are wheel-to-wheel and collide damaging engines, there's going to no way to determine which should / shouldn't get the penalty. Being dive bombed or a "Bottas in Hungary" type event is obviously much easier to say "yes, no penalty applies". I can see it being the source of much discussion on the forum after each event.
4. Agreed. This whole "we don't want to influence" thing is an oxymoron - by not penalising bad driving by a title contender, you actually are influencing the title fight.
5. Agreed. Spell out the rules and then apply them as they were laid out to the drivers and teams. Yes, there will still be grey areas, but at least everyone knows what is to be expected of them.

[Stu]

3. I fail to understand why cars are allowed to unlap themselves (either during SC periods or red flag stoppages). Lapped cars should drop back through the pack and take up running order if it is deemed necessary to move them at all.

From memory, this was brought in back in the days when the cars couldn't overtake - pre DRS, of course. We had races where a back marker effectively decided the race because they were just too quick on the straights but too slow in the corners, so the leader was able to streak away in to the distance whilst the pack were tripping over people. But, as I say, this is trawling my memory and it's probably wrong.

That is my recollection too, however it still does make sense for them to be able to unlap (this has the potential to alter the outcome of the race).
It would be far simpler to have all lapped cars move across and assume formation in leaderboard order behind the safety car one lap prior to the SC coming in.
No fast lapping by lapped traffic when everyone on the lead lap is at SC pace, safer for marshals, safer for competitors.

[basti313]

There are interesting comparisons once can make between the DTM season finale and the F1 season finale when it comes to the rules of racing, good stewarding, public relations, and statements made by the bosses after the fact.

???
The core issue in the DTM finale was dirty driving by one driver and dirty politics by one team. That was just then accompanied by a weak stewarding call, but the stewards were not the reason for the trouble.

I did neither see dirty driving in the F1 finale not weak stewarding calls. One can argue about the first lap of course over pages, but it is not crystal clear wrong like the penalty in DTM. And one can argue about the SC rule bending or not, but except for childish team radios, there was no execution of dirty politics by the teams.
I think this is not comparable.

Its not just defining , or redefining the rules, its making sure they are followed in a consistent fashion.
Stewards, teams and drivers should all know exactly is going to happen on any set situation, and if it is not a set situation, the race should be paused.
Yes, we will get all sorts of problems about what can and should/can not be done during the pause, but that is different argument.

I hate pauses. I do not want pauses. Every red flag is killing the race for 15-30min extra without reason.
Of course you need time to make descissions. It might be black and white in some mind, but in neutral position it is not and putting out a redflag once something is grey is no solution, just making it worse.
You will need stewards who decide a situation and interpret the rules, that is the same in every sports and every legal stuff in real live. There will always be discussion over pages....as long as we do not have more easy rules on leaving space.

So are you happy with the end of the last race, or would you have preferred a 'clean' restart? (remember winners of this time could likely be losers next time)
As I said, there will be no end to the arguments of who 'got away with' things, but it will all be above board.

Edit, admittedly it would have been fine had the rules been followed, but we would not be discussing it now

I was very happy with the attempt to start racing again as quick as possible. Something that is in all our favor I would think. I can not see how one should be happy on the point that with a SC with 5-7 laps to go the race is finished. Then they could directly show the checkered flag.

I also had the impression that this was not a shot from the hip, but the ideas were on the table. There was a lot discussion after the Nuerburgring when they cycled several laps under SC without reason just to follow the book as tight as possible.

The problem was that the attempt to do it better and to resume racing faster came to the worst moment one can imagine. I fear under this emotional topic not only Masi, but the whole "resume racing quickly" is grilled. And while I am not interested in Masi or Ham vs. Max the latter one would be a pity.

If a red flag is a good option....I do not know and do not think so. If there is a standing start it is a lottery (no one has adjusted the clutch to the weight at the end of the race). If there is a rolling start and new tires in 99% of the cases you could do the same as above...show the checkered flag when the SC is deployed with 5 laps to go....also not nice.

[Just_a_fan]

3. I fail to understand why cars are allowed to unlap themselves (either during SC periods or red flag stoppages). Lapped cars should drop back through the pack and take up running order if it is deemed necessary to move them at all.

From memory, this was brought in back in the days when the cars couldn't overtake - pre DRS, of course. We had races where a back marker effectively decided the race because they were just too quick on the straights but too slow in the corners, so the leader was able to streak away in to the distance whilst the pack were tripping over people. But, as I say, this is trawling my memory and it's probably wrong.

That is my recollection too, however it still does make sense for them to be able to unlap (this has the potential to alter the outcome of the race).
It would be far simpler to have all lapped cars move across and assume formation in leaderboard order behind the safety car one lap prior to the SC coming in.
No fast lapping by lapped traffic when everyone on the lead lap is at SC pace, safer for marshals, safer for competitors.

Indeed so, it ought to be possible for the drivers to sort themselves out within a single lap with the help of their teams on the radio.

[basti313]

3. I fail to understand why cars are allowed to unlap themselves (either during SC periods or red flag stoppages). Lapped cars should drop back through the pack and take up running order if it is deemed necessary to move them at all.

From memory, this was brought in back in the days when the cars couldn't overtake - pre DRS, of course. We had races where a back marker effectively decided the race because they were just too quick on the straights but too slow in the corners, so the leader was able to streak away in to the distance whilst the pack were tripping over people. But, as I say, this is trawling my memory and it's probably wrong.

That is my recollection too, however it still does make sense for them to be able to unlap (this has the potential to alter the outcome of the race).
It would be far simpler to have all lapped cars move across and assume formation in leaderboard order behind the safety car one lap prior to the SC coming in.
No fast lapping by lapped traffic when everyone on the lead lap is at SC pace, safer for marshals, safer for competitors.

I disagree on the history.
The unlapping rule had exactly one trigger and this was the fight Vettel vs. Alonso. Vet had usually 2 or 3 backmarkers between him and Alo when SC came and would have nullified the lead. But due to the backmarkers in between we had no action, but the same lead was back until the backmarkers were cleared under blue flags.
It was a pure Lex-RedBull for action. Exactly the action we saw in the last race some time ago

I do not get what you mean with the straight line speed. The change to the unlapping was well in DRS time with well working blue flags and huge pace differences (Pirelli usage) between the teams.

I agree with Stu, there is no reason to unlap. Just let them drop back. That is not more than an issue for timing. The fuel they anyways adjust during the SC period by either saving or burning.

[Ryar]

2. I can see both sides of the argument here. You and Stu come together and cause damage, littering the track with debris. Red flag used because it's too dangerous to clear the track. KeiKo403 and I, following you two, pick up damage from your debris. No fault of ours, but our cars are now potentially dangerous. So we're taken out of the race by you and Stu. That's a bit harsh. However, you and Stu can, at present, also fix your cars so you get a free pass for your moment of combined silliness on track. That's also unfair. No idea how this disparity could be dealt with, however. It's either "everyone fixes" or "no one fixes". To have the stewards saying "you can fix, you can't, you can fix, you can fix, you can't" might be too much for F1 to deal with.

I would rather have you not finish the race than me getting a repair.

The reality is, when title protagonists get into a situation, the advantage gained with red flag is far more impactful than for someone in the midfield or back of the field. Like you highlighted, there can always be a variety of situations that we can't envisage all of it and innocent drivers might get penalized with such a rule change. But to me, if we can't find a perfect solution, make sure we have something that avoids high, unfair advantage situations between the title protagonists. That would be a better compromise. If FIA is serious about having some decent reputation, they should put a group of people to come up with a good framework.

3. A nice idea. It's very rare that the stewards say "one driver was wholly responsible". They usually say "predominantly responsible" even where it seems quite obvious to outsiders. And that would mean engine penalties still apply to the "innocent" party. Certainly, if two drivers are wheel-to-wheel and collide damaging engines, there's going to no way to determine which should / shouldn't get the penalty. Being dive bombed or a "Bottas in Hungary" type event is obviously much easier to say "yes, no penalty applies". I can see it being the source of much discussion on the forum after each event.
4. Agreed. This whole "we don't want to influence" thing is an oxymoron - by not penalising bad driving by a title contender, you actually are influencing the title fight.
5. Agreed. Spell out the rules and then apply them as they were laid out to the drivers and teams. Yes, there will still be grey areas, but at least everyone knows what is to be expected of them.

If we are talking about changing things, then FIA steward group need to be a better group of people, who have proper tools/processes/help at their disposal to make strong, fair and unbiased decisions without giving a flying f*** to fan sentiments. Until they establish a good reputation for themselves with unbiased and consistent decision making, it's hard to accept their decision making. When they have a good reputation, then it becomes easier to respect their decision in disbarring penalties for engine/gearbox situations.
They can't be so naive that, amongst the title protagonist, they penalize the involving driver remaining on track, because the other one is off the race. Otherwise they let go both of them. That's why, I said, decision making has to be hard and fair. If the stewards think one driver is responsible, say it as such and penalize, whether people like it or not should be of no significance. Currently, penalties are leniant for title protagonists and harsh for the rest the field, which is very unfair.

[nzjrs]

People throw around accusations of biased stewarding far too easily these days.

[Just_a_fan]

2. I can see both sides of the argument here. You and Stu come together and cause damage, littering the track with debris. Red flag used because it's too dangerous to clear the track. KeiKo403 and I, following you two, pick up damage from your debris. No fault of ours, but our cars are now potentially dangerous. So we're taken out of the race by you and Stu. That's a bit harsh. However, you and Stu can, at present, also fix your cars so you get a free pass for your moment of combined silliness on track. That's also unfair. No idea how this disparity could be dealt with, however. It's either "everyone fixes" or "no one fixes". To have the stewards saying "you can fix, you can't, you can fix, you can fix, you can't" might be too much for F1 to deal with.

I would rather have you not finish the race than me getting a repair.