Mercedes W13 Speculation Thread

[Jolle]

I think we will still see teams trying to run a high rake to get more expansion from the venturi tunnel, but they will have a greater challenge in "sealing" the sides due to the higher air flow expected under the floor. Those cars will still have more drag though. Mercedes might still yet go with low rake if the numbers show that philosphy is still viable.

I thought low rake was the way to go for 2022?

That is something we suspect but don't know. If teams find a way to seal the floor, a higher rake could create more flow... Looking at Indy hasn't much use, because the cars are spec, so, no way to fiddle with vortexes...

One of the dark horses could be the seals on either side of the rear wheels, that will, no matter what rake you race, seal most of the verturi of the rear.

The ridehight might be one of the most important things to take risks with. If your setup doesn't work in real life, it impacts so much of the design of the car, that you're at the back of the field. But if you go to conservative, you'll stuck in the midfield together with all the other conservative designs.

[PlatinumZealot]

Do you remember when back in 2017 (or 2018?) Mercedes brought a (relatively simple) bodywork version for the first test session and then came up with a completely new one for the last test before the start of the season?

Would it be possible this year to see Merc (or other teams) do something like that or it would be complete nonsense given the small amount of time allowed for testing?

I expect this to happen. Teams will have a basic aero kit in the first days of testing to quickly calibrate their wind-tunnel models while they test the other systems on the cars. They will take that data home and adjust their race 1 car in the windtunnel based on that - Assuming the aerodynamic surfaces of the race 1 car is too complex for quick calibrations.

[Just_a_fan]

Do you remember when back in 2017 (or 2018?) Mercedes brought a (relatively simple) bodywork version for the first test session and then came up with a completely new one for the last test before the start of the season?

Would it be possible this year to see Merc (or other teams) do something like that or it would be complete nonsense given the small amount of time allowed for testing?

I expect this to happen. Teams will have a basic aero kit in the first days of testing to quickly calibrate their wind-tunnel models while they test the other systems on the cars. They will take that data home and adjust their race 1 car in the windtunnel based on that - Assuming the aerodynamic surfaces of the race 1 car is too complex for quick calibrations.

The teams already know how their wind tunnels perform in relation to cars on track - they've been doing it for years, after all.

[Just_a_fan]

Do you remember when back in 2017 (or 2018?) Mercedes brought a (relatively simple) bodywork version for the first test session and then came up with a completely new one for the last test before the start of the season?

Would it be possible this year to see Merc (or other teams) do something like that or it would be complete nonsense given the small amount of time allowed for testing?

The budget cap would probably make that impossible to do today.

[Jolle]

Do you remember when back in 2017 (or 2018?) Mercedes brought a (relatively simple) bodywork version for the first test session and then came up with a completely new one for the last test before the start of the season?

Would it be possible this year to see Merc (or other teams) do something like that or it would be complete nonsense given the small amount of time allowed for testing?

The budget cap would probably make that impossible to do today.

You could argue that it’s the opposite. If they use, especially the first session, to get their sim perfect, designing all the fiddly bits is much easier.

[Jolle]

Do you remember when back in 2017 (or 2018?) Mercedes brought a (relatively simple) bodywork version for the first test session and then came up with a completely new one for the last test before the start of the season?

Would it be possible this year to see Merc (or other teams) do something like that or it would be complete nonsense given the small amount of time allowed for testing?

I expect this to happen. Teams will have a basic aero kit in the first days of testing to quickly calibrate their wind-tunnel models while they test the other systems on the cars. They will take that data home and adjust their race 1 car in the windtunnel based on that - Assuming the aerodynamic surfaces of the race 1 car is too complex for quick calibrations.

The teams already know how their wind tunnels perform in relation to cars on track - they've been doing it for years, after all.

And still, every year we see big teams struggle correlation problems and, for the last few years, stalling rear ends.

[Just_a_fan]

Do you remember when back in 2017 (or 2018?) Mercedes brought a (relatively simple) bodywork version for the first test session and then came up with a completely new one for the last test before the start of the season?

Would it be possible this year to see Merc (or other teams) do something like that or it would be complete nonsense given the small amount of time allowed for testing?

The budget cap would probably make that impossible to do today.

You could argue that it’s the opposite. If they use, especially the first session, to get their sim perfect, designing all the fiddly bits is much easier.

Mercedes declined to run in the 18 inch wet weather tyre test last year precisely because of the budget cap and the costs needed to repair Bottas's car after Imola. That's just a tyre test, not a complete throw-away car.

No team is going to build an entire "simple" car for a couple of test days and then entirely replace it for the next test like Mercedes famously did. There just isn't the resource available now.

[De Jokke]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A4c_0sM ... b_imp_woyt

[Jolle]

The budget cap would probably make that impossible to do today.

You could argue that it’s the opposite. If they use, especially the first session, to get their sim perfect, designing all the fiddly bits is much easier.

Mercedes declined to run in the 18 inch wet weather tyre test last year precisely because of the budget cap and the costs needed to repair Bottas's car after Imola. That's just a tyre test, not a complete throw-away car.

No team is going to build an entire "simple" car for a couple of test days and then entirely replace it for the next test like Mercedes famously did. There just isn't the resource available now.

A complete other car is a bit much, I agree. The Bottas crash and subsequent “oh budget cap” was more political then factual is my guess. There is a provision already in the rules for unforeseen costs like extra crashes or other stuff (in a 5% overspending possibility on request).

What I suspect is not a complete different car but a simpler car, to get the basic correlation up and running. The cars are so different that they really can’t rely on old correlation data. When they have the data we’ll probably see the (already ready) bodywork with a lot more flips, poky pits and ridges and for the first GP or Barcelona the update from the data from that first test.
I suspect some teams will be caught out that their CFD and tunnel data isn’t working on track, resulting in stalling floors and unbalanced on track.

Cost is less of a issue. It’s only bodywork that for the most part could be upgraded with new fiddly bits or would be used just for testing anyway.

[Just_a_fan]

You could argue that it’s the opposite. If they use, especially the first session, to get their sim perfect, designing all the fiddly bits is much easier.

Mercedes declined to run in the 18 inch wet weather tyre test last year precisely because of the budget cap and the costs needed to repair Bottas's car after Imola. That's just a tyre test, not a complete throw-away car.

No team is going to build an entire "simple" car for a couple of test days and then entirely replace it for the next test like Mercedes famously did. There just isn't the resource available now.

A complete other car is a bit much, I agree. The Bottas crash and subsequent “oh budget cap” was more political then factual is my guess. There is a provision already in the rules for unforeseen costs like extra crashes or other stuff (in a 5% overspending possibility on request).

What I suspect is not a complete different car but a simpler car, to get the basic correlation up and running. The cars are so different that they really can’t rely on old correlation data. When they have the data we’ll probably see the (already ready) bodywork with a lot more flips, poky pits and ridges and for the first GP or Barcelona the update from the data from that first test.
I suspect some teams will be caught out that their CFD and tunnel data isn’t working on track, resulting in stalling floors and unbalanced on track.

Cost is less of a issue. It’s only bodywork that for the most part could be upgraded with new fiddly bits or would be used just for testing anyway.

I think there is also the question of how much leeway do the teams have with the bodywork / aero package within the rules? There doesn't seem to be much scope for lots of "twiddly bits" like we've seen in recent years - it's more going to be the placing of the underfloor entry strakes, the exact shape of the dffuser, that sort of thing. Much of that is going to be hidden anyway short of them having to be winched on to a lorry if they break down / crash.

So I think we'll see the teams looking to run the cars for as many laps as possible - they'll still get the aero data they need to check their correlations - in order to ensure cooling system design etc. is right.

I do wonder whether the teams can, within the rules, bring new suspension designs to trial. Not sure what is restricted these days in the token system. Making a mess of the suspension will be much harder to fix than altering the strakes / floor.

[PlatinumZealot]

Do you remember when back in 2017 (or 2018?) Mercedes brought a (relatively simple) bodywork version for the first test session and then came up with a completely new one for the last test before the start of the season?

Would it be possible this year to see Merc (or other teams) do something like that or it would be complete nonsense given the small amount of time allowed for testing?

I expect this to happen. Teams will have a basic aero kit in the first days of testing to quickly calibrate their wind-tunnel models while they test the other systems on the cars. They will take that data home and adjust their race 1 car in the windtunnel based on that - Assuming the aerodynamic surfaces of the race 1 car is too complex for quick calibrations.

The teams already know how their wind tunnels perform in relation to cars on track - they've been doing it for years, after all.

The evidence that I have read in F1 news over the years is that it is not as simple as that. The wind tunnel models still have to be fine tuned to suit differences in new cars. Maybe different sizes and location of vortices, vibrations, tyre deflections etc. This makes sense and is something I have experienced not in wind-tunnels per say, but with instruments and systems throughout my engineering career. I still had to fine-tune for different sizes, additional shapes or details in objects for the same instruments / rigs. Example, I used to work with flow meters a lot, which are simple compared to wind-tunnels, and because I was dealing with un-clean, very un-steady water those instruments had to be fine tuned across different ranges at different times of year. Another example was with a cutting-edge instrument at the time that measures suspended solids (not turbidity which is simpler) and that had to be calibrated for each aeration basin, based on the "sludge" tendencies of those basins. Instruments were calibrated in a dark room and compared with laboratory readings across a range, and that had to be done every few months. I am not an expert, and never saw anything more than a tiny model plane wind-tunnel in my life, but I highly doubt you can use a wind-tunnel and last year's track calibrations with the new cars this year. Just too easy to be F1 level.

[Morteza]

Show car again...

[Jolle]

Show car again...
https://www.instagram.com/p/CZSBsibMZL0 ... =copy_link

Well... that isn't one of the FIA models (wing mirror connects slightly different) and it's not the W12.

Someone took a photoshop course, or the W13 had pushrod suspension.

Edit: someone online lighten the image, the steeringwheel has some text on it: "nice photoshop skills"

[wogx]

S-duct? Would it be legal?

[BlueCheetah66]

Show car again...
https://www.instagram.com/p/CZSBsibMZL0 ... =copy_link

Well... that isn't one of the FIA models (wing mirror connects slightly different) and it's not the W12.

Someone took a photoshop course, or the W13 had pushrod suspension.

Edit: someone online lighten the image, the steeringwheel has some text on it: "nice photoshop skills"

https://preview.redd.it/il6hqhqkqge81.j ... 3b0ef62df8

Still is the same FIA model Mercedes have been using for pictures. They do have the wing mirror connection like that