Many of the F1 teams have a habit of building show cars. A dummy car for sponsor purposes makes sense and wouldn't have all the bells and whistles.
I'm looking forward to all the amateur aerodynamic analysis though
Broadly speaking they did. Even back when it was is not prescribed that way, cars from the same era always tend to look much the same as (virtually) everybody copies the latest new 'must have' go-faster idea usually within no more than two to three seasons (be it putting the engine in the back, using a monocoque, using the engine as a stressed member, using wings, using ground effects, using a carbon tub, using a raised nose etc).adrianjordan wrote: ↑09 Feb 2022, 16:24Hell we have fans on this very forum who claim that even the 2021 cars all looked the same as each other!!
Exactly. There is a lot more monkey-see-monkey-do than actual innovation. Even if it's innovation in the motorsports space, it's usually borrowed from somewhere else.JordanMugen wrote: ↑09 Feb 2022, 17:09Broadly speaking they did. Even back when it was is not prescribed that way, cars from the same era always tend to look much the same as (virtually) everybody copies the latest new 'must have' idea usually within no more than two to three seasons (be it putting the engine in the back, using a monocoque, using the engine as a stressed member, using wings, using ground effects, using a carbon tub, using a raised nose etc).adrianjordan wrote: ↑09 Feb 2022, 16:24Hell we have fans on this very forum who claim that even the 2021 cars all looked the same as each other!!
Heck, often the copying happens within the span of just 1-2 race meetings! IIRC, the 1967 cars all sprouted wings very rapidly indeed.
Exactly so. Dummy tubs are easy enough to make, as is dummy bodywork. None of it needs to do anything other than carry the weight of the paintwork and the sponsors' logos.Hoffman900 wrote: ↑09 Feb 2022, 17:07Many of the F1 teams have a habit of building show cars. A dummy car for sponsor purposes makes sense and wouldn't have all the bells and whistles.
I'm looking forward to all the amateur aerodynamic analysis though
Was it not this very team that had exhaust pipe stickers on the car to hide what they were doing in terms of blowing the diffuser?Hoffman900 wrote: ↑09 Feb 2022, 17:13
Hell, in a lot of racing, you sometimes make something obvious to create a diversion from what you're really doing somewhere else.
Technically new rules, we are all amateurs until the cars run on track and we see what actually works and what doesn't. You can't just feed data to your AI, garbage in, garbage out. You need some real world data to start the optimization process.Hoffman900 wrote: ↑09 Feb 2022, 17:07Many of the F1 teams have a habit of building show cars. A dummy car for sponsor purposes makes sense and wouldn't have all the bells and whistles.
I'm looking forward to all the amateur aerodynamic analysis though
And if it was for marketing purposes it would fall outside of the budget cap tooJust_a_fan wrote: ↑09 Feb 2022, 17:14Exactly so. Dummy tubs are easy enough to make, as is dummy bodywork. None of it needs to do anything other than carry the weight of the paintwork and the sponsors' logos.Hoffman900 wrote: ↑09 Feb 2022, 17:07Many of the F1 teams have a habit of building show cars. A dummy car for sponsor purposes makes sense and wouldn't have all the bells and whistles.
I'm looking forward to all the amateur aerodynamic analysis though
Are you sure ?I’ve never seen such a dummy. I’ve only seen them using old cars and renders. Making a dummy is more work than you think.Just_a_fan wrote: ↑09 Feb 2022, 17:14Exactly so. Dummy tubs are easy enough to make, as is dummy bodywork. None of it needs to do anything other than carry the weight of the paintwork and the sponsors' logos.Hoffman900 wrote: ↑09 Feb 2022, 17:07Many of the F1 teams have a habit of building show cars. A dummy car for sponsor purposes makes sense and wouldn't have all the bells and whistles.
I'm looking forward to all the amateur aerodynamic analysis though
So you think that the teams have absolutely no idea how their car will perform on track until the first test? Or do you just mean we onlookers in internet-land?godlameroso wrote: ↑09 Feb 2022, 17:18Technically new rules, we are all amateurs until the cars run on track and we see what actually works and what doesn't. You can't just feed data to your AI, garbage in, garbage out. You need some real world data to start the optimization process.Hoffman900 wrote: ↑09 Feb 2022, 17:07Many of the F1 teams have a habit of building show cars. A dummy car for sponsor purposes makes sense and wouldn't have all the bells and whistles.
I'm looking forward to all the amateur aerodynamic analysis though
We're all amateurs even when they do run. Correlation is a hard, hard thing to do. It's more than just imaging air and running a rudimentary CFD model. Even Boeing and Airbus struggle with it and they individually have budgets many times over the combined F1 grid.godlameroso wrote: ↑09 Feb 2022, 17:18Technically new rules, we are all amateurs until the cars run on track and we see what actually works and what doesn't. You can't just feed data to your AI, garbage in, garbage out. You need some real world data to start the optimization process.Hoffman900 wrote: ↑09 Feb 2022, 17:07Many of the F1 teams have a habit of building show cars. A dummy car for sponsor purposes makes sense and wouldn't have all the bells and whistles.
I'm looking forward to all the amateur aerodynamic analysis though
Many a teams car has not behaved as expected once on track, and they had previous data to go by. I certainly expect some nasty surprises in a few weeks for at least 1 team, if not more, and that could be any team quite franklyJust_a_fan wrote: ↑09 Feb 2022, 17:24So you think that the teams have absolutely no idea how their car will perform on track until the first test? Or do you just mean we onlookers in internet-land?godlameroso wrote: ↑09 Feb 2022, 17:18Technically new rules, we are all amateurs until the cars run on track and we see what actually works and what doesn't. You can't just feed data to your AI, garbage in, garbage out. You need some real world data to start the optimization process.Hoffman900 wrote: ↑09 Feb 2022, 17:07Many of the F1 teams have a habit of building show cars. A dummy car for sponsor purposes makes sense and wouldn't have all the bells and whistles.
I'm looking forward to all the amateur aerodynamic analysis though
I have seen basic bodywork over any old bit of hardware. It doesn't have to be a current tub to have apparently current clothes draped over it. I've seen all sorts of cobbled together stuff over the years - even an old tub with plywood additions with bodywork on it once. Some is very convincing and some doesn't stand up to any close scrutiny. But if it's just to sit in a sponsor's office foyer, it won't really make any different either way. It's the shiny paintwork that will make unknowing folk think "it's Max's F1 car!".Tizz wrote: ↑09 Feb 2022, 17:23Are you sure ?I’ve never seen such a dummy. I’ve only seen them using old cars and renders. Making a dummy is more work than you think.Just_a_fan wrote: ↑09 Feb 2022, 17:14Exactly so. Dummy tubs are easy enough to make, as is dummy bodywork. None of it needs to do anything other than carry the weight of the paintwork and the sponsors' logos.Hoffman900 wrote: ↑09 Feb 2022, 17:07Many of the F1 teams have a habit of building show cars. A dummy car for sponsor purposes makes sense and wouldn't have all the bells and whistles.
I'm looking forward to all the amateur aerodynamic analysis though
The teams have an idea because they're so involved in the design process, and simulation etc. They know what they have, but they have no idea how it will actually perform on track, certainly not against the others. We onlookers know substantially less, and have no data to make any inferences, at least until Bahrain.Just_a_fan wrote: ↑09 Feb 2022, 17:24So you think that the teams have absolutely no idea how their car will perform on track until the first test? Or do you just mean we onlookers in internet-land?godlameroso wrote: ↑09 Feb 2022, 17:18Technically new rules, we are all amateurs until the cars run on track and we see what actually works and what doesn't. You can't just feed data to your AI, garbage in, garbage out. You need some real world data to start the optimization process.Hoffman900 wrote: ↑09 Feb 2022, 17:07Many of the F1 teams have a habit of building show cars. A dummy car for sponsor purposes makes sense and wouldn't have all the bells and whistles.
I'm looking forward to all the amateur aerodynamic analysis though
And we're not going to have any real data that matters, other than lap times.godlameroso wrote: ↑09 Feb 2022, 17:29The teams have an idea because they're so involved in the design process, and simulation etc. They know what they have, but they have no idea how it will actually perform on track, certainly not against the others. We onlookers know substantially less, and have no data to make any inferences, at least until Bahrain.Just_a_fan wrote: ↑09 Feb 2022, 17:24So you think that the teams have absolutely no idea how their car will perform on track until the first test? Or do you just mean we onlookers in internet-land?godlameroso wrote: ↑09 Feb 2022, 17:18
Technically new rules, we are all amateurs until the cars run on track and we see what actually works and what doesn't. You can't just feed data to your AI, garbage in, garbage out. You need some real world data to start the optimization process.
This. Funny how much plywood can be found in some static sponsor carsJust_a_fan wrote: ↑09 Feb 2022, 17:28I have seen basic bodywork over any old bit of hardware. It doesn't have to be a current tub to have apparently current clothes draped over it. I've seen all sorts of cobbled together stuff over the years - even an old tub with plywood additions with bodywork on it once. Some is very convincing and some doesn't stand up to any close scrutiny. But if it's just to sit in a sponsor's office foyer, it won't really make any different either way. It's the shiny paintwork that will make unknowing folk think "it's Max's F1 car!".Tizz wrote: ↑09 Feb 2022, 17:23Are you sure ?I’ve never seen such a dummy. I’ve only seen them using old cars and renders. Making a dummy is more work than you think.Just_a_fan wrote: ↑09 Feb 2022, 17:14
Exactly so. Dummy tubs are easy enough to make, as is dummy bodywork. None of it needs to do anything other than carry the weight of the paintwork and the sponsors' logos.