Renault R29

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timbo
timbo
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Joined: 22 Oct 2007, 10:14

Re: Renault R29

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xpensive wrote:Ground-effect by Bernoulli obviously comes from air travelling faster under the car than above, which I believe would be rather difficult to achieve to any greater extent with a flat underside.
Actually flat underside is that creates pressure drop in the first place, when you constrict air to travel through tiny space under the car. Diffuser helps to make it more effective, but it only helps, it does not create effect.
In the old days, you still had every reason to run as close to the ground as possible, vertical CoG being one of them.
Yes, but they also they also were concerned that suspension needs some travel to work properly. They also had very little floor area compared to modern cars.
But anyway, the point was that I failed to see that an F1-car would be safer because of the diffuser?
It's not that it would be safer with diffuser, it is that flat floor is more dangerous than T-shaped floor and that to still allow some DF (I want cars to be able to sustain that lateral Gs they can now :?) you need T-floor + diffuser. Why not a standard diffuser?

On why T-floor is safer - first thing is that you have only a limited area in close proximity to the ground. Another thing is that as sides are higher DF is much sensitive to roll.
Look at in car videos from 1988 to 1992. Cars are beasts to drive! There's literary NO suspension. All that came from desire to keep floor as low to the ground and with as little ground-clearance variation as possible.

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PlatinumZealot
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Joined: 12 Jun 2008, 03:45

Re: Renault R29

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So the t floor is like a baffle then.. more stability during times where the air underneath the car will try to move from left to right...?
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xpensive
xpensive
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Joined: 22 Nov 2008, 18:06
Location: Somewhere in Scandinavia

Re: Renault R29

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The way his argumentation wonders about, I'm afraid that timbo has misunderstood a thing or two.
"I spent most of my money on wine and women...I wasted the rest"

leomax
leomax
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Joined: 27 May 2006, 05:57

Re: Renault R29

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http://www.total-formule1.com/en/#/the-tv-commercial
I stumbled upon this tv ad during last gp,is that an interim car?

timbo
timbo
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Joined: 22 Oct 2007, 10:14

Re: Renault R29

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xpensive wrote:The way his argumentation wonders about, I'm afraid that timbo has misunderstood a thing or two.
So, please, elaborate on the subject, then :wink:

My reasoning is simple. DF is result of air being forced in the ground clearance under the car. Diffuser only helps this by effectively increasing air pressure, so it would blend better with air above the car. It would work as suction device only if you have clean and fast airflow above the car - that's why coke-bottle shape.

Flat bottom doesn't need diffuser to create DF, it only helps it by decreasing drag and if you have clean airflow above the car it would work as suction device.
Flat bottom is also very sensitive to ride-height variation. You car easily calculate how air velocity should increase under the car if you change ground clearance from 2 cm to, say 1.5.

xpensive
xpensive
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Joined: 22 Nov 2008, 18:06
Location: Somewhere in Scandinavia

Re: Renault R29

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By all means timbo, crack some numbers. :)

And while we wait for that to happen, the ugliness of the R29 has now reached previously unthinkable levels to my eyes, actually exceeding that of a certain Sauber of the mid 90s.

Can anyone remind me of another F1 car as ugly as the R29?
"I spent most of my money on wine and women...I wasted the rest"

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Metar
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Joined: 23 Jan 2008, 11:35

Re: Renault R29

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It reminds me of an Ensign - which holds a special place in my books as holder of the "Hopelessly Nasty Nose Design" award:

Image

I dunno, I found the '75-'80 era Ferraris quite ugly too - the ones with the upside-down wing mounts. Actually, most of the mid-early era winged cars (after the initial attempts in the late '60s, which still had the basic beautiful '60s shape, and before the more sophisticated ground-effects cars) were just horrendously nasty to look at, in my opinion.

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Callum
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Joined: 18 Jan 2009, 15:03
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland

Re: Renault R29

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leomax wrote:http://www.total-formule1.com/en/#/the-tv-commercial
I stumbled upon this tv ad during last gp,is that an interim car?

This makes me thing even more that the fat nose of todays car is because the origonal didnt pass the crash-test.

xpensive
xpensive
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Joined: 22 Nov 2008, 18:06
Location: Somewhere in Scandinavia

Re: Renault R29

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Good lord Metar, that one will be difficult to top! Was that Derek Daly driving btw?
"I spent most of my money on wine and women...I wasted the rest"

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Metar
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Joined: 23 Jan 2008, 11:35

Re: Renault R29

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He drove in 1979, so it could be him... Poor chap. At least he was in that car and couldn't see the monstrosity.

xpensive
xpensive
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Joined: 22 Nov 2008, 18:06
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Re: Renault R29

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"I spent most of my money on wine and women...I wasted the rest"

astracrazy
astracrazy
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Joined: 04 Mar 2009, 16:04

Re: Renault R29

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leomax wrote:http://www.total-formule1.com/en/#/the-tv-commercial
I stumbled upon this tv ad during last gp,is that an interim car?
it is the one which failed the crash test i would think. it looks much better, i fail to see why they didnt work on keeping that design. The fat nose cant be the way to go

timbo
timbo
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Joined: 22 Oct 2007, 10:14

Re: Renault R29

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Well, I'd try to do some number cracking, although I'm chemist, so numbers are kinda secondary to me))
So, you have >mass/time = constant< condition for flow. it can be rearranged into >density*area*velocity=constant< condition, so velocities are inversely proportional to area. As the width of the floor is constant, you can easily see what effect ride-height has on the velocity of air underneath the car.
Well, right now I'm having a flu and bored so you're welcome to do the math, excuse me.

Giblet
Giblet
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Joined: 19 Mar 2007, 01:47
Location: Canada

Re: Renault R29

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That car... ugh. No wonder i've never seen it. It defies viewing.

That nose looks like a step ladder.
Before I do anything I ask myself “Would an idiot do that?” And if the answer is yes, I do not do that thing. - Dwight Schrute

czt
czt
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Joined: 05 Mar 2009, 00:07

Re: Renault R29

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leomax wrote:http://www.total-formule1.com/en/#/the-tv-commercial
I stumbled upon this tv ad during last gp,is that an interim car?
Looks like an 08 car minus some of the aero devices with an 09 livery to me.