2022 Oracle | Red Bull Racing F1 Team

[Dee]

I bring up Mercedes because somehow, a few posters seem to think that RB are the devil incarnate and Mercedes are as pure as the driven snow. They seem to think that RB will suddenly start enacting team orders without having a history of it previously.

I take it you missed Abu Dhabi then?

This whole conversation is about RB not having a history of using team orders to give a win to their other driver when that other driver was ahead in qualy.

Multiple times, Merc have not allowed Bottas and Ham to battle for position, instead taking a win off of Bottas and giving it to Hamilton through team orders.

Perez out performing Max. That is the context. Trust you to try and derail it but only finding an example where Perez was again not outperforming Max.

It's not his own team taking his own win off him and giving it to his teammate, a la Bottas and Hamilton.

[AeroDynamic]

Why compare a team who hasn't been fighting for the title since 2013, their recent history, to a team who have been fighting for the title for 8 years? The first time RB had a title fight, they contracted a compliant number 2, it was in the contract. Even drivers who aren't in the same team or contracted as such, were effectively made to move aside for Max last year (AT) or in some cases' used to help qualify (Mexico, although it didn't work out)

When you're fighting for titles, somebody gets priority to bag points. Its normal. If RBR are not fighting for titles the next years, then I expect they will treat Max and his team more equal like Ferrari have done. If they fight for titles, a number 2 will be used and RB will pull rank on AT drivers or Max's team mate to make sure they maximise Verstappen's weekend.

Comparing RBR's dynamic with Daniel when they weren't fighting for titles is pointless.

When it comes to this dynamic in teams, Mercedes an McLaren are some of the fairest. It is irrational to not make the title favourite driver of the team bag maximum points where possible after there is clearly one favourite horse to back leading the title fight.

A team in Mercedes and Ferrari's position can be fair by allowing both drivers to start off with equal treatment until one proves they should get the backing. In MCS case, Ham proved it every season against Valtterri. What is the point of maximising the other driver who isn't in the title hunt as much as his team mate or the rival teams driver?

What I find appalling in this area is using another team (A b team) as extra support to your driver like we saw last season with AT.

[lh13]

Since you're obviously a Merc / Ham fan, You should first ask yourself what kind of verbal gymnastics you will pull if Russell starts outperforming Hamilton, which IMO has a greater chance of happening than Perez outperforming Verstappen.

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At Mercedes there is not a number 2 and contracts are short term. Hamilton is a old ass driver at 37 and on his way out, so if George kicks his butt on an increasingly frequent basis this is actually good for the Mercedes side.

Now at RedBull, remember the high salary is a risk premium demanded by the Verstappens. (if the car is bad, and if other teams come calling).
On the RedBull admin, side they are hoping that Max remains competitive relative to other drivers inside RedBull and in other teams. This is not guaranteed over six years, so RedBull is taking the bigger end of the risk.

If Perez (or insert new RedBull junior phenom here) starts taking points off Max more regularly, it will mean RedBull will have lost in the deal. In other words if this happens it means they could have had the same performance for cheaper.

Oh yeah, but Mercedes made the right choice by giving the same amount of money to a 37 year old, who's only going to get worse from here, unlike Verstappen who's only 24 and can still get better. Mercedes will surly get full value for their money if Russell outperforms their 40mn/year driver.

Some delusional Merc/Ham fans being their usual self, nothing to see here. Moving on.

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[Just_a_fan]

Some delusional Merc/Ham fans being their usual self, nothing to see here. Moving on.

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And some Ham-haters hoping to see him fail.

[dans79]

I bring up Mercedes because somehow, a few posters seem to think that RB are the devil incarnate and Mercedes are as pure as the driven snow. They seem to think that RB will suddenly start enacting team orders without having a history of it previously.

This whole conversation is about RB not having a history of using team orders to give a win to their other driver when that other driver was ahead in qualy.

You are moving the qual posts, but no matter.

If they don't have a history of team orders, how do you explain multi-21?

[Dee]

Why compare a team who hasn't been fighting for the title since 2013, their recent history, to a team who have been fighting for the title for 8 years? The first time RB had a title fight, they contracted a compliant number 2, it was in the contract. Even drivers who aren't in the same team or contracted as such, were effectively made to move aside for Max last year (AT) or in some cases' used to help qualify (Mexico, although it didn't work out)

When you're fighting for titles, somebody gets priority to bag points. Its normal. If RBR are not fighting for titles the next years, then I expect they will treat Max and his team more equal like Ferrari have done. If they fight for titles, a number 2 will be used and RB will pull rank on AT drivers or Max's team mate to make sure they maximise Verstappen's weekend.

Comparing RBR's dynamic with Daniel when they weren't fighting for titles is pointless.

When it comes to this dynamic in teams, Mercedes an McLaren are some of the fairest. It is irrational to not make the title favourite driver of the team bag maximum points where possible after there is clearly one favourite horse to back leading the title fight.

A team in Mercedes and Ferrari's position can be fair by allowing both drivers to start off with equal treatment until one proves they should get the backing. In MCS case, Ham proved it every season against Valtterri. What is the point of maximising the other driver who isn't in the title hunt as much as his team mate or the rival teams driver?

What I find appalling in this area is using another team (A b team) as extra support to your driver like we saw last season with AT.

When it comes to it Mercedes are not one of the fairest.

https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/arti ... gys08.html
Third race into the season and made Bottas give up P2 to Hamilton

https://ftw.usatoday.com/2018/09/formul ... eam-orders. Hamilton 40 points ahead of Vettel and asked to pull over and give Hamilton the win...

I understand when team orders are needed but do not for one second say that Red Bull are the worst or the most unfair when using them

[Dee]

My point is not about who's winning and who's not, its about poster coming here to take a dig at Verstappen, that he might get beaten by Perez while being so highly paid, especially when there is no history to suggest anything likely, while not taking the same dig at Hamilton for getting paid the same, while being paired with a driver that's arguably a lot better than Perez.

And before anyone says its not a dig, shut up, because it is, especially when such a post comes from a die hard Hamilton fan.

Could not have said it better myself

[Dee]

This whole conversation is about RB not having a history of using team orders to give a win to their other driver when that other driver was ahead in qualy.

You are moving the qual posts, but no matter.

If they don't have a history of team orders, how do you explain multi-21?

Multi-21 was the "weaker" teammate getting the jump on the number 1 and RB not allowing the number 1 to fight against the number 2 when doing so would risk both their results. RB backing the driver who performed during the race no matter the championship fight or their rankings within the team

Its the direct opposite of what the orginal poster said, when they said that RB would enact team orders if Perez started beating Max

[SiLo]

Since you're obviously a Merc / Ham fan, You should first ask yourself what kind of verbal gymnastics you will pull if Russell starts outperforming Hamilton, which IMO has a greater chance of happening than Perez outperforming Verstappen.

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At Mercedes there is not a number 2 and contracts are short term. Hamilton is a old ass driver at 37 and on his way out, so if George kicks his butt on an increasingly frequent basis this is actually good for the Mercedes side.

Now at RedBull, remember the high salary is a risk premium demanded by the Verstappens. (if the car is bad, and if other teams come calling).
On the RedBull admin, side they are hoping that Max remains competitive relative to other drivers inside RedBull and in other teams. This is not guaranteed over six years, so RedBull is taking the bigger end of the risk.

If Perez (or insert new RedBull junior phenom here) starts taking points off Max more regularly, it will mean RedBull will have lost in the deal. In other words if this happens it means they could have had the same performance for cheaper.

Oh yeah, but Mercedes made the right choice by giving the same amount of money to a 37 year old, who's only going to get worse from here, unlike Verstappen who's only 24 and can still get better. Mercedes will surly get full value for their money if Russell outperforms their 40mn/year driver.

Some delusional Merc/Ham fans being their usual self, nothing to see here. Moving on.

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I'm trying to see the logic here but coming up short. Are you saying Mercedes made a mistake giving Lewis a big salary? I'd say hes earned it. He also has a short contract now as well.

Really the point was this: will there be any internal tensions if the driver they are paying 40mil a year to drive their car is getting beaten by their "2nd" driver earning a lot less?

I think Perez is pretty chill, and Horner and Marko, whilst massive bullshitters, wouldn't actively slow someone down if they were driving better. If Perez is in a position to win the title and Max is not, they will tell Max to move out of the way as well.

[SiLo]

Why compare a team who hasn't been fighting for the title since 2013, their recent history, to a team who have been fighting for the title for 8 years? The first time RB had a title fight, they contracted a compliant number 2, it was in the contract. Even drivers who aren't in the same team or contracted as such, were effectively made to move aside for Max last year (AT) or in some cases' used to help qualify (Mexico, although it didn't work out)

When you're fighting for titles, somebody gets priority to bag points. Its normal. If RBR are not fighting for titles the next years, then I expect they will treat Max and his team more equal like Ferrari have done. If they fight for titles, a number 2 will be used and RB will pull rank on AT drivers or Max's team mate to make sure they maximise Verstappen's weekend.

Comparing RBR's dynamic with Daniel when they weren't fighting for titles is pointless.

When it comes to this dynamic in teams, Mercedes an McLaren are some of the fairest. It is irrational to not make the title favourite driver of the team bag maximum points where possible after there is clearly one favourite horse to back leading the title fight.

A team in Mercedes and Ferrari's position can be fair by allowing both drivers to start off with equal treatment until one proves they should get the backing. In MCS case, Ham proved it every season against Valtterri. What is the point of maximising the other driver who isn't in the title hunt as much as his team mate or the rival teams driver?

What I find appalling in this area is using another team (A b team) as extra support to your driver like we saw last season with AT.

When it comes to it Mercedes are not one of the fairest.

https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/arti ... gys08.html
Third race into the season and made Bottas give up P2 to Hamilton

https://ftw.usatoday.com/2018/09/formul ... eam-orders. Hamilton 40 points ahead of Vettel and asked to pull over and give Hamilton the win...

I understand when team orders are needed but do not for one second say that Red Bull are the worst or the most unfair when using them

I laughing at the first example, they were chasing a win vs Ferrari! Second one was a bit of a disgrace, but considering it was switching positions 1 & 2, I don't think Mercedes care (sadly).

[Dee]

At Mercedes there is not a number 2 and contracts are short term. Hamilton is a old ass driver at 37 and on his way out, so if George kicks his butt on an increasingly frequent basis this is actually good for the Mercedes side.

Now at RedBull, remember the high salary is a risk premium demanded by the Verstappens. (if the car is bad, and if other teams come calling).
On the RedBull admin, side they are hoping that Max remains competitive relative to other drivers inside RedBull and in other teams. This is not guaranteed over six years, so RedBull is taking the bigger end of the risk.

If Perez (or insert new RedBull junior phenom here) starts taking points off Max more regularly, it will mean RedBull will have lost in the deal. In other words if this happens it means they could have had the same performance for cheaper.

Oh yeah, but Mercedes made the right choice by giving the same amount of money to a 37 year old, who's only going to get worse from here, unlike Verstappen who's only 24 and can still get better. Mercedes will surly get full value for their money if Russell outperforms their 40mn/year driver.

Some delusional Merc/Ham fans being their usual self, nothing to see here. Moving on.

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I'm trying to see the logic here but coming up short. Are you saying Mercedes made a mistake giving Lewis a big salary? I'd say hes earned it. He also has a short contract now as well.

Really the point was this: will there be any internal tensions if the driver they are paying 40mil a year to drive their car is getting beaten by their "2nd" driver earning a lot less?

I think Perez is pretty chill, and Horner and Marko, whilst massive bullshitters, wouldn't actively slow someone down if they were driving better. If Perez is in a position to win the title and Max is not, they will tell Max to move out of the way as well.

You are intentionally missing the logic

The hypocrisy is coming on here and judging RB negatively for paying Max so much while Merc have done the same thing with Hamilton

Both of them are paid enormous amounts of money but only Max is highlighted in terms of being beaten next year and how wrong RB will look if that happens

Merc is in the same boat. You can't come on here to a RB thread and say something so hypocritical as a Merc fan, and it was a Merc fan that started it all

[Just_a_fan]

Why compare a team who hasn't been fighting for the title since 2013, their recent history, to a team who have been fighting for the title for 8 years? The first time RB had a title fight, they contracted a compliant number 2, it was in the contract. Even drivers who aren't in the same team or contracted as such, were effectively made to move aside for Max last year (AT) or in some cases' used to help qualify (Mexico, although it didn't work out)

When you're fighting for titles, somebody gets priority to bag points. Its normal. If RBR are not fighting for titles the next years, then I expect they will treat Max and his team more equal like Ferrari have done. If they fight for titles, a number 2 will be used and RB will pull rank on AT drivers or Max's team mate to make sure they maximise Verstappen's weekend.

Comparing RBR's dynamic with Daniel when they weren't fighting for titles is pointless.

When it comes to this dynamic in teams, Mercedes an McLaren are some of the fairest. It is irrational to not make the title favourite driver of the team bag maximum points where possible after there is clearly one favourite horse to back leading the title fight.

A team in Mercedes and Ferrari's position can be fair by allowing both drivers to start off with equal treatment until one proves they should get the backing. In MCS case, Ham proved it every season against Valtterri. What is the point of maximising the other driver who isn't in the title hunt as much as his team mate or the rival teams driver?

What I find appalling in this area is using another team (A b team) as extra support to your driver like we saw last season with AT.

When it comes to it Mercedes are not one of the fairest.

https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/arti ... gys08.html
Third race into the season and made Bottas give up P2 to Hamilton

https://ftw.usatoday.com/2018/09/formul ... eam-orders. Hamilton 40 points ahead of Vettel and asked to pull over and give Hamilton the win...

I understand when team orders are needed but do not for one second say that Red Bull are the worst or the most unfair when using them

Your example at the third race of the year:

Bottas, who started from pole and led the early stages of the race, let Hamilton by for strategic reasons around mid-distance, and then again 10 laps from home when it became clear that the Briton was the team’s best chance of catching race leader Sebastian Vettel.

“As a racing driver it's the worst thing you want to hear, but that’s life,” said Bottas after coming home third. “I understand the team completely on that. They had the opportunity at the end of the day to get some extra points for the team and fight for the victory.

“So yes I see the point, but still it’s tough when you’re on pole and trying to win a race. But I’m definitely a team player so I wouldn’t say no to that [team order].”

Bottas wasn't going to beat Vettel, Hamilton might have done. At Mercedes, the team comes first and they will always take team points over an individual driver's points, especially so early in the season.

Think back to Hungary 2017 where Bottas was asked to let Hamilton through to attack because Bottas wasn't able to. When Hamilton was also unable to make any inroads in the Ferraris, he gave Bottas the place back, even though Hamilton was ahead of Bottas in the title race.

This is all now very off topic for the Red Bull team thread, however.

[PlatinumZealot]

The only negative we can say about RB in this regard is their hypocrissy about driver salaries, but the salarybis not the point of focus, but additionally the long term attached to it. All I am hihghlighting is that RB is at greater risk in the deal.

Perez has joined RB for one year. Shall I remind you that he was beaten by Hulkenburd in his first season at Force India. You simply cannot write him off as a toothless pushover. The other factors would be RedBull juniors coming up to the big team. Lets say you are a new driver in 2023 If you know you are number two for six years.... How will you take this? If you are just as fast as Max how will you take this?

Imo Such long term contracts are risky for RB but they chose the marriage.

[Dee]

The only negative we can say about RB in this regard is their hypocrissy about driver salaries, but the salarybis not the point of focus, but additionally the long term attached to it. All I am hihghlighting is that RB is at greater risk in the deal.

Perez has joined RB for one year. Shall I remind you that he was beaten by Hulkenburd in his first season at Force India. You simply cannot write him off as a toothless pushover. The other factors would be RedBull juniors coming up to the big team. Lets say you are a new driver in 2023 If you know you are number two for six years.... How will you take this? If you are just as fast as Max how will you take this?

Imo Such long term contracts are risky for RB but they chose the marriage.

They only gave out about Hamilton's pay because they knew that Max would request the same if given the chance, which he did. It was projection.

As for the long term deal

Why don't you think either RB or Max do not have performance clauses built in for each other?

Max needs RB to perform and RB needs Max to perform.

No way in hell, both do not have that in writing on a 280 million dollar deal

[AeroDynamic]

When it comes to it Mercedes are not one of the fairest.

https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/arti ... gys08.html
Third race into the season and made Bottas give up P2 to Hamilton

https://ftw.usatoday.com/2018/09/formul ... eam-orders. Hamilton 40 points ahead of Vettel and asked to pull over and give Hamilton the win...

I understand when team orders are needed but do not for one second say that Red Bull are the worst or the most unfair when using them

They are some of the fairest. Compared to Rubens at Ferrari and Perez at RBR? they had no opportunity.

That third race in 2017 with Bottas? hmm lets seee.. after 2 races, he is 20 points behind Hamilton, and also 20 points behind Vettel in Ferrari. Hamilton and Vettel dead even. Who should they maximise in race 3 then? Good team work and fair decision. Later that season, Hamilton requested position from Bottas to try and overtake the Ferrari ahead, and promised to give the position back if he could not progress. By the end of the race, he gave the position back to Valterri. You think this is unfair and poor judgement from Mercedes?

2018 was another season where Ferrari were giving the title a good go, given you can lose a lot of points from DNF and Valterri was out of realistic contention in that phase of the season, it is a good call. A little unfair to Valterri to lose a win but not unfair to ask him to support the title bid. Bottas was behind Hamilton by 100 points and equally a very large amount behind Vettel.

its fair enough to give drivers an equal opportunity to take command of the team and be backed as the title favourite to build the team's strategy around.