Mercedes W13

[atanatizante]

Just a principle question about this second testing session in Bahrein:

It`s worth considering testing the Barcelona W13 version tomorrow morning in order to check back-to-back the new upgrades in the afternoon session or even the day after?
Or the test time is so limited these days that they will not waste the time, coz they already have the data from CFD, wind tunnel and the simulator?

[SuperCNJ]

is it possible or every season has it's own budget that you can't add a panny which you had saved from year before ? If every season didn't have it's own budget, so teams will have many different budgets. If I were, I would spent only for essential things to run job and would save all money to this year. That would be very clever approach for every team except Redbul and Mercedes. So they would have bigger budgets compared to these two big teams. If it is possible it is simple a dumb thing by fia.

I had the same thought before and I think it is possible. Say in 2021 they started a concept design on a specific part/idea that was not adopted in 2021 but used the 2021 budget to do the work. They could take that proven concept design, or at least the knowledge or data gathered from that exercise, and effectively skip concept design in 2022 for that part/idea and jump straight into detail design.

Or I guess they could use their residual 2021 budget to pay for things that can be reused such as software upgrades, tools/equipment, exploring new technologies and materials etc.

[Phlumbert]

https://mobile.twitter.com/GiulyDuchess ... 6528117765

Translation:

Yes, Mercedes will have ultra small bellies. It will have a frightening efficiency over the bottom, especially towards the slipstream/ post/beam wing.
On the other hand the need to have always high enough incidences to generate load in the slow and in braking.
The clue was the post wing >>

I think I need a translation of the translation.

Are they suggesting that the design of the beam wing is proof that the car will have even smaller sidepods?

Hahah

Not sure about the beam wing but it seems he is suggesting the massive rear wing they had has something to do with it. Here is the rest of his post:

I wondered why in Barcelona they had more wing than anyone, with a +load config even with DRS open. It's something risky that could wreak havoc, on others or on themselves, it could open a new avenue for the study of these F1s, or be set aside >>

Even RedBull for example partially surprised with under-square by marrying the efficiency line above the floor to look for more load with the wings but to a different extent.
The 2022 cars have been heavily regulated and yet we are seeing even opposite paths >>

I am of the opinion that those who had less time made clear decisions (starting from the extreme) betting on a risk that is considered calculated by the great simulation skills.
So the best technicians have married different concepts and this is the great news

However, he has just posted this:



Translated:

In part I agree, there is a lot of curiosity to see the W13 and maybe you will be disappointed. Anyway, the bellies are not gone, but the fact that they are very narrow is a certainty, so we can expect more changes on the conveyors or in the configuration.

So not entirely gone, but perhaps much smaller?

[NathanOlder]

Really looking forward to tomorrow now. Got the day off work, will be watching all day. Lets see some silver monster.

After the let downs of the early "not car" launches etc., and testing behind semi-closed doors, this is the first time I've been excited this season. Hoping the revised W13 is a proper revision and not just tweaks to bits and bobs.

But if they do come with something revolutionary, the previous launch will be just another ‘not car launch’, and half of the forum will feel compelled to pile-on and give Mercedes as much of a kicking as the other half did with Red Bull (after their livery launch).

Batten down the hatches!!!

Not really though, as Mercedes ran the launch car in Barcelona. The launch car was the current W13, if they have upgraded it by the time they get to Bahrain, then its just that, an upgrade.

[NathanOlder]

Just a principle question about this second testing session in Bahrein:

It`s worth considering testing the Barcelona W13 version tomorrow morning in order to check back-to-back the new upgrades in the afternoon session or even the day after?
Or the test time is so limited these days that they will not waste the time, coz they already have the data from CFD, wind tunnel and the simulator?

Good point, although using a whole moring or day may be a bit much. Is there anything in the testing rules to say they cant use 2 cars ? I guess there is. How tight are those rules , because if a team crashed a car and then decided to use a new tub, PU etc etc , then its a new car. Surely thats allowed. So you could send George out for 30min run to gather corner speed data etc in the old car, bring it back to the pits, 10mins later Lewis rolls out in a different spec car. Mercedes claim Georges car had a damages Chassis and damaged Power Unit, and George is now feeling sick.

[cooken]

Really looking forward to tomorrow now. Got the day off work, will be watching all day. Lets see some silver monster.

After the let downs of the early "not car" launches etc., and testing behind semi-closed doors, this is the first time I've been excited this season. Hoping the revised W13 is a proper revision and not just tweaks to bits and bobs.

But if they do come with something revolutionary, the previous launch will be just another ‘not car launch’, and half of the forum will feel compelled to pile-on and give Mercedes as much of a kicking as the other half did with Red Bull (after their livery launch).

Batten down the hatches!!!

Clearly not the same, as Merc did not unveil the show car with zero changes and pretend it was theirs.

This is a worthless post that reeks of and invites tribalism, the last thing this forum needs more of. As a mod you should strive to do better than this.

[ringo]

How exactly would you control tyre wake in an era with no no out-wash FW, no bargeboards... and no sidepods?

Not sure where this rumour came from... but I'm not buying it

This tyre wake control thing is actually the flavour of the month fad. Having no sidepods is the more beneficial thing to do.
The tyres already have the winglets above them by regulation. The cars do not have bargeboards any more to turn the air outward.
what they do have are tunnels.. very big tunnels and that's where most of the air that matters will be going.
Removing the side pods reduces lift and provides more high energy flow over the top of the floor and to the rear of the car.
The tyre wake thing only affects drag, doesnt produce downforce and will vary as the front wheels turn.

[Emag]

How exactly would you control tyre wake in an era with no no out-wash FW, no bargeboards... and no sidepods?

Not sure where this rumour came from... but I'm not buying it

This tyre wake control thing is actually the flavour of the month fad. Having no sidepods is the more beneficial thing to do.
The tyres already have the winglets above them by regulation. The cars do not have bargeboards any more to turn the air outward.
what they do have are tunnels.. very big tunnels and that's where most of the air that matters will be going.
Removing the side pods reduces lift and provides more high energy flow over the top of the floor and to the rear of the car.
The tyre wake thing only affects drag, doesnt produce downforce and will vary as the front wheels turn.

Tyre wake significantly alters the flow towards the rear for worse. It's not a good idea to leave it unmanaged.

The winglets on top of the wheels and covers help somewhat, but they don't nullify the problem.

If Mercedes doesn't do anything to mitigate the dirty air at least to a certain degree, it won't matter how much free space they have on top of the floor. If the dirty air hits the rear before the diffuser, it messes up everything.

And the fact that this wake is variable, as you said, changing with amount of steering input. That makes it even worse because not only is there a huge mess, it's an incosistent mess.

[Marty_Y]

Isn't the M13 the engine code? W is normally the chassis and M is the engine, or at least that's how it always used to be.

Edit, the post I was replying to has been deleted.

[Jambier]

https://mobile.twitter.com/GiulyDuchess ... 6528117765

Translation:

I think I need a translation of the translation.

Are they suggesting that the design of the beam wing is proof that the car will have even smaller sidepods?

Hahah

Not sure about the beam wing but it seems he is suggesting the massive rear wing they had has something to do with it. Here is the rest of his post:

I wondered why in Barcelona they had more wing than anyone, with a +load config even with DRS open. It's something risky that could wreak havoc, on others or on themselves, it could open a new avenue for the study of these F1s, or be set aside >>

Even RedBull for example partially surprised with under-square by marrying the efficiency line above the floor to look for more load with the wings but to a different extent.
The 2022 cars have been heavily regulated and yet we are seeing even opposite paths >>

I am of the opinion that those who had less time made clear decisions (starting from the extreme) betting on a risk that is considered calculated by the great simulation skills.
So the best technicians have married different concepts and this is the great news

However, he has just posted this:

https://twitter.com/GiulyDuchessa/statu ... WUxNYpAAAA

Translated:

In part I agree, there is a lot of curiosity to see the W13 and maybe you will be disappointed. Anyway, the bellies are not gone, but the fact that they are very narrow is a certainty, so we can expect more changes on the conveyors or in the configuration.

So not entirely gone, but perhaps much smaller?

What about lateral crash test? I'm not sure they are "allowed" to have no sidepod, I mean, there is a crash part at least that is mandatory

[Marty_Y]

https://www.grandprix247.com/2022/03/09 ... r-bahrain/

HAVE MERCEDES GOT A SECRET WEAPON FOR BAHRAIN?
Jad Mallak 9 March, 2022

Grandprix247’s tech guru Mark Kay gave his opinion about the Mercedes upgrade rumor, and said: “If the rumors are true it would seem like a huge risk to me. In 2022 F1 has been forced into risk adverse development behaviors.

“Given the diminishing resources afforded the most successful teams in accordance with the handicapping intent of the new regime regulations, Mercedes would need to be very sure that it was a path worthy of empirical verification if the whispers were true, because the penalty of not being so will be very detrimental to their development budget balance for the rest of the year.

Mercedes need to be very sure about their development path
“Even though I haven’t had much time to consider the implications of the rumored Mercedes solution, the obvious benefits would be associated with reduced drag bodywork, the potential ability to position weight closer to the cars center line, and quite possibly the freeing up of space to be able to innovate rear suspension and rear floor work,” Mark explains.

“Obviously though, if the sidepods were narrowed, or even omitted completely, there would still be the need for cooling system components, and the logical solution then would be for them to be positioned higher up.

“One of the benefits of a more orthodox positioning of the cooling system is that the weight can be kept lower down and positioned more symmetrically about the car’s center line. By having to locate coolant filled radiators higher up and potentially in a more concentrated position it might not necessarily be optimal for suspension load distribution, and inertia moments.

“Nevertheless, irrespective of the benefits or disadvantages, as I understand it, Liberty and the FIA have quite clearly reserved the right to alter the regulations if and when a team comes up with an innovation that is such an advantage that it contravenes the intent of the new regulations, which is a closer and more diverse competition,” Grandprix247’s Tech expert concluded.

Bahrain’s official pre-season test kicks off on Thursday, March 10, and will be held over three days, when all will be revealed regarding the teams’ upgraded cars, and especially Mercedes’ W13

https://www.planetf1.com/news/f1-rumour ... -sidepods/

F1 rumours: Radical Mercedes W13 with no sidepods?
Date published: March 9 2022 - Michelle Foster

But whether it will lead to a protest should Mercedes run the design at the Bahrain Grand Prix remains to be seen with the Brackley squad having said to have asked for ‘substantial clarifications before proceeding’ with the design.

Over at Mercedes, they are being coy about the upgraded package.

A spokesman for the team told Auto Motor und Sport: “Everyone flies to Bahrain with new parts. The biggest upgrades are usually the ones you can see from the outside.”

Sky Sport’s Ted Kravitz reckons this week could see a barrage of protests, or at least questions, being put before the FIA and its new race directors.

[AeroDynamic]

Really looking forward to tomorrow now. Got the day off work, will be watching all day. Lets see some silver monster.

After the let downs of the early "not car" launches etc., and testing behind semi-closed doors, this is the first time I've been excited this season. Hoping the revised W13 is a proper revision and not just tweaks to bits and bobs.

But if they do come with something revolutionary, the previous launch will be just another ‘not car launch’, and half of the forum will feel compelled to pile-on and give Mercedes as much of a kicking as the other half did with Red Bull (after their livery launch).

Batten down the hatches!!!

That would be pretty irrational comparing an F1 designed stock car 'livery launch' to a genuine Mercedes designed '22 car (albeit an older iteration in the development timeline)

but I wouldn't put it above certain people around here

https://twitter.com/sportmphmark/status ... 42994?s=21

Something from a source I trust about the innovation inbound on the W13.

Now, am I Surprised Mercedes haven’t shown their hand like some teams? No.

But I think expectations should be tempered. If the downwash bodywork looks more mean and aggressive, that would be a great reveal. If the first iteration was some sort of red herring to throw the others off and chase something meaningless.. that would be epic.

Who has shown their hand?
Maybe Alfa, maybe Haas, Williams?

based on What Ferrari said, probably Ferrari.

By showing their hand, I'm basing that on the idea that other teams have shown more up-to-date and recent iterations of their cars along the development timeline. And if it turns out Mercedes have shown us a very old iteration dating much further back, then that for me is a team not showing their hand yet. Naturally all teams will be bringing a large amount of development in the coming months from development that is ongoing as we speak.

[LM10]

https://www.planetf1.com/news/f1-rumour ... -sidepods/

F1 rumours: Radical Mercedes W13 with no sidepods?
Date published: March 9 2022 - Michelle Foster

But whether it will lead to a protest should Mercedes run the design at the Bahrain Grand Prix remains to be seen with the Brackley squad having said to have asked for ‘substantial clarifications before proceeding’ with the design.

Over at Mercedes, they are being coy about the upgraded package.

A spokesman for the team told Auto Motor und Sport: “Everyone flies to Bahrain with new parts. The biggest upgrades are usually the ones you can see from the outside.”

Sky Sport’s Ted Kravitz reckons this week could see a barrage of protests, or at least questions, being put before the FIA and its new race directors.

The correct quote says “the ones you can not see from the outside”. Which does make more sense too.

[dans79]

I'll believe it when I see it. People have a tendency to say "they came with a b-spec car for the second test a couple years ago, so they could do that again" and then that's just what people want to see.
But they completely disregard the fact that Mercedes this time have to develop their car under a budget cap, and with the least amount of CFD runs of any team.

But they will certainly have concepts in consideration before the cap effects hit. Don't forget that they deliberately didn't run the wet tyre test last year in order to save money. They said it was because of the damage to Bottas's car at Imola, but who knows? Also, they didn't do a lot of aero update work on the W12 where Red Bull were bringing updates through the season. Entirely possible they basically banked resources for this year and a "let's see what works best" approach.

The W13 we've seen so far is basically just the W12's body tweaked and dropped on a 2022-regs floor.

You may be right and all they do is turn up with a new mirror turning vane and a revised floor edge. But we can at least have the enjoyment of hoping they're going to turn up with a "where did that come from?!!" design for rest of today.

is it possible or every season has it's own budget that you can't add a panny which you had saved from year before ? If every season didn't have it's own budget, so teams will have many different budgets. If I were, I would spent only for essential things to run job and would save all money to this year. That would be very clever approach for every team except Redbul and Mercedes. So they would have bigger budgets compared to these two big teams. If it is possible it is simple a dumb thing by fia.

What they most likely would have done, was done was some amount of 2022 development last year.

[Shakeman]

I'll believe it when I see it. People have a tendency to say "they came with a b-spec car for the second test a couple years ago, so they could do that again" and then that's just what people want to see.
But they completely disregard the fact that Mercedes this time have to develop their car under a budget cap, and with the least amount of CFD runs of any team.

I'm with you on the 'I'll believe it when I see it' but the cost cap and limitations in number of CFD runs doesn't rule out a dramatic change in a perverse it might mean a dramatic change is more likely.

As a former engineer who worked in a cash and resource strapped organisation it did teach us to think outside the box a lot and get creative and I've seen brilliant engineers come up with great ideas in a mature project that just takes it in a completely different direction.

If someone has literally had a shower moment and come up with something out of leftfield and 'doing the numbers' shows a huge benefit then you're going to spend your limited credits no matter what.

I wondered if the McLaren U Sidepod design could be extended wider so they're interacting with the tyre wake and conditioning it i.e. Tie fighter sidepods? I'm pulling this stuff out of my arse so please shoot it down, use the force if necessary or even facts.

With ground effect being the dominant form of DF with the new regs just how important is front wheel wake now anyway? Is its importance been dramatically reduced? If you have a slender body away from the wake isn't that as good?