Ferrari F1-75

[Andi76]

Are you expecting ferrari to publically say that they screwed the pooch with a missed opportunity and that the merc concept is already superior to theirs??!

This line of questioning from whoever asked it was always going to produce the expected answer.

In my view, it makes a lot of sense to hear Ferrari tried developing this nano-pod design, they were minimizing sidepods consistently from 2017-2021. It also makes a lot of sense they opted for something different if it showed greater potential - something completely different in this case.

To improve the aerodynamic floor performance with any given floor design you have to get more air to the rear wing and then to the beam wing, in that order. Getting more air on top of the diffuser is tertiary. Rear wing creates more suction and will help beam wing as a secondary effect as well. To that end, I'd never go Mercedes direction and start putting stuff higher, clogging up the flow ahead of rear wing. But that's just me...

And then we have the effect of wide sidepods punching a hole through the air for those big fat rear tyres...

Look at the twitter thread above your post. The Ferrari has longer gears. For a given wheel velocity, the Ferrari will be at a lower RPM.

The better way to look (imo) is to look at the actual wheel speed (velocity), not RPM. From there its apparent Merc might be turned down.

That post above mentions RB and Merc, not Ferrari. All we have is terminal velocities and there are a dozen reasons why Ferrari is faster and only one of them is Merc being turned down. Let's not read too much into unofficial graphs...

Thats a dangerous view in here. I was rated negatively yesterday because of "fake news", because i said I assume that Ferrari had a reason to abandon these kind of sidepods and go with a different design...

[Vanja #66]

Report this to the mods, this is not what voting system should be used for.

[AeroDynamic]

[dialtone]

They said they wouldn't bring updates but there's a lot of little things that are new, plus 3 floors and a new front wing.

[SiLo]

To improve the aerodynamic floor performance with any given floor design you have to get more air to the rear wing and then to the beam wing, in that order. Getting more air on top of the diffuser is tertiary. Rear wing creates more suction and will help beam wing as a secondary effect as well. To that end, I'd never go Mercedes direction and start putting stuff higher, clogging up the flow ahead of rear wing. But that's just me...

Can you explain this in more detail please? It seems Mercedes haven't really mounted much higher than they have had in previous seasons. The Ferrari design really interests me from an aero standpoint as I try and understand big vs small sidepods. Surely more flow over the top of the diffuser is always beneficial? Surely Ferrari are having to energise the air in an entirely different way to get it to the beam wing and top of the floor?

[AeroDynamic]

Another shot of the McLaren style floor edge on the Ferrari today
motorsport.com


and if you missed it, a new pice of aero on the front end of the floor

[Vanja #66]

Can you explain this in more detail please? It seems Mercedes haven't really mounted much higher than they have had in previous seasons. The Ferrari design really interests me from an aero standpoint as I try and understand big vs small sidepods. Surely more flow over the top of the diffuser is always beneficial? Surely Ferrari are having to energise the air in an entirely different way to get it to the beam wing and top of the floor?

I honestly don't know how to explain that in more detail, but I'll try. Rear wing creates the biggest pressure difference both on top and bellow and it creates the strongest upwash of those three. Depending how aggressive the beam wing is, and it usually is, on it's own it could create stronger upwash than diffuser/floor. Upper element has more influence on the one bellow than the one bellow has on the upper element, due to their geometry and relative size.

More flow over the diffuser is always beneficial, but for the overall car (in my experience) it's not as beneficial as letting the rear wing and beam wing drive the floor. Here's a plot from Vyssion and jjn's CFD of 2022 car to see how the upwash angles change even when all 3 elements are there and working together.



From what I've seen, Mercedes has raised the engine cover bodywork between new and launch spec, let alone between seasons. Especially right behind the cockpit, where they are now guiding the air through...



I don't want to go OT with W13 discussion here, so I'll stop here

[AeroDynamic]

#AMuS

[SiLo]

Can you explain this in more detail please? It seems Mercedes haven't really mounted much higher than they have had in previous seasons. The Ferrari design really interests me from an aero standpoint as I try and understand big vs small sidepods. Surely more flow over the top of the diffuser is always beneficial? Surely Ferrari are having to energise the air in an entirely different way to get it to the beam wing and top of the floor?

I honestly don't know how to explain that in more detail, but I'll try. Rear wing creates the biggest pressure difference both on top and bellow and it creates the strongest upwash of those three. Depending how aggressive the beam wing is, and it usually is, on it's own it could create stronger upwash than diffuser/floor. Upper element has more influence on the one bellow than the one bellow has on the upper element, due to their geometry and relative size.

More flow over the diffuser is always beneficial, but for the overall car (in my experience) it's not as beneficial as letting the rear wing and beam wing drive the floor. Here's a plot from Vyssion and jjn's CFD of 2022 car to see how the upwash angles change even when all 3 elements are there and working together.

https://imgur.com/rUTxoyq.gif

From what I've seen, Mercedes has raised the engine cover bodywork between new and launch spec, let alone between seasons. Especially right behind the cockpit, where they are now guiding the air through...

https://imgr1.auto-motor-und-sport.de/M ... 879833.jpg

I don't want to go OT with W13 discussion here, so I'll stop here

Thanks for the explanation and accompanying gif. I can see where the flow hits the beam wing bringing the overall flow upwards.

My question would be, if energising the flow UNDER the wing is what makes a wing more efficient, surely the flow over the top of the floor also makes the beam wing more effective, and in turn, the rear wing as well?

Please forgive any ignorance on this topic!

[Thunder]

Laptimes have been moved to the Team Thread.

[Vanja #66]

Thanks for the explanation and accompanying gif. I can see where the flow hits the beam wing bringing the overall flow upwards.

My question would be, if energising the flow UNDER the wing is what makes a wing more efficient, surely the flow over the top of the floor also makes the beam wing more effective, and in turn, the rear wing as well?

Please forgive any ignorance on this topic!

Yes, floor and beam wing are working together a lot so clearing up that zone helps both. What I'm talking about are very fine and subtle differences in the amount and quality of air going either to that zone or the rear wing. Rear wing generates a lot more drag than beam wing, so in my view the right thing to do would be to optimize the rear wing first by ensuring you've cleared up everything in front of it.

[RZS10]

The floor shaking violently with a locked front tyre into T10 (i think) - not sure whether it's just happening on the Ferrari or also on other cars but hasn't been caught by the cameras yet even though there have been many lockups into that corner already.


[link for full scene]

It looks like it's the 'McL style' floor, i wonder whether it would behave differently without the stay.

Interesting how loose it looks at the connection between the floor and the sidepod ...

[kalinka]

The floor shaking violently with a locked front tyre into T10 (i think) - not sure whether it's just happening on the Ferrari or also on other cars but hasn't been caught by the cameras yet even though there have been many lockups into that corner already.

https://i.imgur.com/9DV4Fzd.gif
[link for full scene]

It looks like it's the 'McL style' floor, i wonder whether it would behave differently without the stay.

Interesting how loose it looks at the connection between the floor and the sidepod ...

I think it is induced by the outside rear tyre going over the kerb. you can see the whole rear wing shaking on the full footage.

[FDD]

The floor shaking violently with a locked front tyre into T10 (i think) - not sure whether it's just happening on the Ferrari or also on other cars but hasn't been caught by the cameras yet even though there have been many lockups into that corner already.

https://i.imgur.com/9DV4Fzd.gif
[link for full scene]

It looks like it's the 'McL style' floor, i wonder whether it would behave differently without the stay.

Interesting how loose it looks at the connection between the floor and the sidepod ...

I think it is induced by the outside rear tyre going over the kerb. you can see the whole rear wing shaking on the full footage.

Yes, when the car is of the kerb it stops shaking

[Andi76]

On Sky Germany Andreas Haupt from "auto, motor und sport" just gave some interesting insights and rumours from the Paddock. I want to underline that this is speculation from a journalist and what team personal told him.

He said : all teams are saying Ferrari seems to be in front. They go out, no matter with which tyre, and they are consistently fast. Also it is said that Ferrari and McLaren are the teams who have almost no problems with porpoising. Mercedes seems to have a big problem at low ride heights with porpoising, according to Haupt.

So it seems to look very good for Ferrari. But still - its testing!

Even if this is not the Red Bull thread - Red Bull will test their new parts tomorrow. It was said that its not a radical update like Mercedes did, but visible to the naked eye.