2022 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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Vanja #66
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Re: 2022 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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PlatinumZealot wrote:
13 Mar 2022, 00:45
The spirit ofthe rules is to reduce the wake of the car. There is no issues with having wing-like elements on the side pod becauae everyone's side pod has wing-like element on it. Just that Mercedes own is bigger!
Ah, but there are issues, aren't there? FIA and FOM don't want to allow grey area elements and solutions which might affect the following car. Yet, we all know increasing the flow to the rear (which is what this mirror wing does) amplifies the downforce in some way and therefore - the wake turbulence.
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wogx
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Re: 2022 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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DChemTech
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Re: 2022 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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Thing is, even if they built an actual brick, nobody will believe them after downplaying their performance and feigning to be underdog for so many years. Just have to wait and see where they show up next week.

lh13
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Re: 2022 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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This is the perfect example of crying wolf.

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AeroDynamic
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Re: 2022 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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If Mercedes are intentionally lying, this season, this car, and the surrounding circumstances, wouldn't leave me surprised.

but it also wouldn't surprise me if they aren't lying! lol

shamyakovic
shamyakovic
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Re: 2022 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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Vanja #66 wrote:
13 Mar 2022, 09:23
PlatinumZealot wrote:
13 Mar 2022, 00:45
The spirit ofthe rules is to reduce the wake of the car. There is no issues with having wing-like elements on the side pod becauae everyone's side pod has wing-like element on it. Just that Mercedes own is bigger!
Ah, but there are issues, aren't there? FIA and FOM don't want to allow grey area elements and solutions which might affect the following car. Yet, we all know increasing the flow to the rear (which is what this mirror wing does) amplifies the downforce in some way and therefore - the wake turbulence.
Brawn: A team may come in and raise an objection
“There are some very extreme interpretations of the regulations which could lead to a lot of debate. We did not anticipate the Mercedes concept.

“Our initial impressions are that there’s nothing here that we would be overly concerned about in terms of those objectives in the regulations. The regulators of the sport know what’s going on – I think they’re ok with it so far

“But a team may come in and raise an objection that the FIA hadn’t considered, and then you have a problem,” explained Brawn.

BBC report that the FIA has looked at the Mercedes W13 and given it the all-clear. Apparently, the FIA had run it in CFD analysis and found it did not disrupt the airflow; Brawn and the rule-makers were always intent on discouraging any solutions that would have increased the car’s aero-wake.

Earmarked for 2021, but introduced this year because of the coronavirus pandemic, the key F1 rule changes are very aero-centric with a ground-effect floor, a simplified front wing, an all-new simpler rear wing and 18-inch tyres with wheel winglets.

https://www.grandprix247.com/2022/03/10 ... 1-testing/

So they cant use that line to get it banned, coz its already tested by FIA and there seems to be no change in wake

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atanatizante
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Re: 2022 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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There is something I don`t get.
I thought this year`s car philosophy is to have a less draggy car, hence go fast on the straights.
Instead, they are looking good at the slow corners and bad on the straights.
What I`m missing? Porpoising on the straights, a low PU mode or a car full of fuel?
Maybe a bit of all above, isn`t it?
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shamyakovic
shamyakovic
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Re: 2022 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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atanatizante wrote:
13 Mar 2022, 15:41
There is something I don`t get.
I thought this year`s car philosophy is to have a less draggy car, hence go fast on the straights.
Instead, they are looking good at the slow corners and bad on the straights.
What I`m missing? Porpoising on the straights, a low PU mode or a car full of fuel?
Maybe a bit of all above, isn`t it?
Yes, and also nearly weighing a 1000kg when in full tank

shamyakovic
shamyakovic
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Re: 2022 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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wogx wrote:
13 Mar 2022, 13:58
Image
Most of these were true statements though, they did struggle with the car early 2017, RB were a challenge early 2018, the 2019 one was after the first test before the massive upgrade package so probably also true at that stage. 2020 the only negative comments he gave was around engine reliability and of course they did have issues in 2021 during the first half of the season finding the sweet spot.

Mchamilton
Mchamilton
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Re: 2022 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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atanatizante wrote:
13 Mar 2022, 15:41
There is something I don`t get.
I thought this year`s car philosophy is to have a less draggy car, hence go fast on the straights.
Instead, they are looking good at the slow corners and bad on the straights.
What I`m missing? Porpoising on the straights, a low PU mode or a car full of fuel?
Maybe a bit of all above, isn`t it?
This years cars are inherently less draggy arent they? So i dont think chasing an 'low drag' design as such would be an big objective of the teams. Efficiency of course is always key.

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NathanOlder
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Re: 2022 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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How about this chat happened in December......


Team : "Ok, we'll drop it, despite knowing we have a very strong case, on the condition you guarantee us that the W13 will be legal in what we have shown you so far"

FIA : "What choice do we have, hmmm, ok deal"
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Mchamilton
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Re: 2022 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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NathanOlder wrote:
13 Mar 2022, 17:52
How about this chat happened in December......


Team : "Ok, we'll drop it, despite knowing we have a very strong case, on the condition you guarantee us that the W13 will be legal in what we have shown you so far"

FIA : "What choice do we have, hmmm, ok deal"
You really think thats plausible? How about simply that it meets the rules and its a clever (looking, at least) design

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NathanOlder
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Re: 2022 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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Mchamilton wrote:
13 Mar 2022, 18:09
NathanOlder wrote:
13 Mar 2022, 17:52
How about this chat happened in December......


Team : "Ok, we'll drop it, despite knowing we have a very strong case, on the condition you guarantee us that the W13 will be legal in what we have shown you so far"

FIA : "What choice do we have, hmmm, ok deal"
You really think thats plausible? How about simply that it meets the rules and its a clever (looking, at least) design
I seriously doubt it, but with how screwed up the FIA have been of late, why not. Ferrari did a deal behind closed doors with the FIA when they were caught doing something they shouldn't have, so it shows the FIA are happy to make deals in private, this just leaves the door open for something to happen.

Just wild guessing though.
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silver
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Re: 2022 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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shamyakovic wrote:
13 Mar 2022, 17:22
Most of these were true statements though, they did struggle with the car early 2017, RB were a challenge early 2018, the 2019 one was after the first test before the massive upgrade package so probably also true at that stage. 2020 the only negative comments he gave was around engine reliability and of course they did have issues in 2021 during the first half of the season finding the sweet spot.
For those who scratched the surface and looked deeper into the data, such statements were really blowing smoke up the ar*e. 2019 was the only year where even the available long run data pointed deficit in Mercedes case because the upgrade package didn't provide instant results and it took until the last day of the second test to nail down the setup sweet spot. So it could be forgiven to think the picture available would have pointed a Ferrari lead.

https://f1metrics.wordpress.com/2017/03 ... -analysis/
https://f1metrics.wordpress.com/2018/03 ... -analysis/
https://f1metrics.wordpress.com/2019/03 ... -analysis/

But this year though even the long run data is not really favoring Mercedes. The guy who used to do that analysis on f1metrics has stopped doing it since last year. But having followed the methodology, it's not hard to understand how to interpret the long run data. Unlike 2019, the problems of the current car appears to be stemming from a completely surprising issue. The data so far points at a deficit for Mercedes. What remains to be seen is, are they in a similar situation to 2019 and it's a matter of understanding setup or it is that the porpoising issue is so beyond setup control that they have to work on new solutions to cure the problem in which case, it may take more than just the start of 1st race of the season.

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/the- ... s/8952995/
As our exclusive photograph (below) shows, late on Saturday Mercedes took the saw to the innermost underfloor strake, removing some of the lower edge, in an effort to change flow distribution out and across the forward section of the floor and into the underfloor and diffuser section.

Their final few runs of the session were also completed with the W13’s underfloor having been doused with flo-viz, in order that it might get some visual confirmation of the competing flow structures and hope that it might provide some further feedback on the direction it might need to take to solve the ill effects that the phenomenon creates.

The move to cut the floor shows that Mercedes is trying to find a way to get rid of the porpoising problem without having to raise the ride height so much that it loses its peak downforce.
Image

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: 2022 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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Kyle engineers does a good explanation on how the mirrors and down-wash wing are legal. It's not even pushing the limits when you understand it.

The teams are allowed to truncate the wing mirror support into the body of the side pod and fuselage. In the case of Mercedes this is an imaginary, fairly conventional support connecting to the fuselage that is culled by the down-wash wing.

As for the down-wash wing, it legally complies as a side-pod because it meets the requirement of having no more than two sections when sliced longitudinally. Mercedes achieved this with the overcut floor and by putting a transverse slit that is hidden under the wing.
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