Red Bull RB18

[Aesop]

Anyone noticed any rake on the RB18? According to Gary Anderson Redbull was adding rake to the car.

I think there was some rake on the car. It only scraped the floor at the front. Not big, just a little.

https://twitter.com/i/status/1502674691886141443

Pause the video at 00:12/00:13, you can see there is a little rake in the car

Interesting!

[Vanja #66]

Because it's not really being forced into the ground, but rather skirting just above. It's no different to the front wing endplates which have been drooping to the ground for years before 2022.

It's very different. This whole porpoising phenomena is happening because the car is being forced (sucked) down, which leads to even more floor sealing, which leads to even more suction. If you let the floor touch the ground and there is no separation in diffuser (ie no floor stalling) then the car will be forced down more and more as the speed gets higher.

[chrisc90]

Because it's not really being forced into the ground, but rather skirting just above. It's no different to the front wing endplates which have been drooping to the ground for years before 2022.

It's very different. This whole porpoising phenomena is happening because the car is being forced (sucked) down, which leads to even more floor sealing, which leads to even more suction. If you let the floor touch the ground and there is no separation in diffuser (ie no floor stalling) then the car will be forced down more and more as the speed gets higher.

Sounds daft, but what if they had a block there that was hitting the ground? Obvilously it would have to be at the minimum ride height, but I wonder if the floor is at the minimum height. In effect, the block is 75mm off the ground, but the floor is 100mm. Which when compressed allows the floor to be 25mm off the ground, which could be enough to stop the bouncing. Probably a very radical idea though and completely wrong.

[Vanja #66]

Sounds daft, but what if they had a block there that was hitting the ground? Obvilously it would have to be at the minimum ride height, but I wonder if the floor is at the minimum height. In effect, the block is 75mm off the ground, but the floor is 100mm. Which when compressed allows the floor to be 25mm off the ground, which could be enough to stop the bouncing. Probably a very radical idea though and completely wrong.

Yes, something like that would be almost ideal. However, they have skid blocks to prevent excessive floor damage, those are prescribed by rules and far shorter than 25mm unfortunately.

Ideally, teams could use skirts and something like small steel wheels in place of skid blocks to keep the needed ride height, but any such ideas have been banned decades ago

[Big Tea]

Because it's not really being forced into the ground, but rather skirting just above. It's no different to the front wing endplates which have been drooping to the ground for years before 2022.

It's very different. This whole porpoising phenomena is happening because the car is being forced (sucked) down, which leads to even more floor sealing, which leads to even more suction. If you let the floor touch the ground and there is no separation in diffuser (ie no floor stalling) then the car will be forced down more and more as the speed gets higher.

Would it need to actually touch the surface? If it was suspension locked to bottom out with say 20mm tyre movement allowed, could that be 'sealed off' from the sides with pressure or a vortex along the floor edge?
could movement from that point up could be controlled to keep it slow enough?

[PlatinumZealot]

Because it's not really being forced into the ground, but rather skirting just above. It's no different to the front wing endplates which have been drooping to the ground for years before 2022.

It's very different. This whole porpoising phenomena is happening because the car is being forced (sucked) down, which leads to even more floor sealing, which leads to even more suction. If you let the floor touch the ground and there is no separation in diffuser (ie no floor stalling) then the car will be forced down more and more as the speed gets higher.

Sounds daft, but what if they had a block there that was hitting the ground? Obvilously it would have to be at the minimum ride height, but I wonder if the floor is at the minimum height. In effect, the block is 75mm off the ground, but the floor is 100mm. Which when compressed allows the floor to be 25mm off the ground, which could be enough to stop the bouncing. Probably a very radical idea though and completely wrong.

I think the teams want the floor to hit the ground actually, so they will not put any skid blocks there even if they were allowed to. The trick is to allow the edges of the floor to seal against the ground, but make a little relief area near the throat to prevent the choking. You will see the teams cut a slit and put some flaps to do this, and to still make the floor edge work when the ride heights comes up. Mercedes interestingly has not put on any device like that yet.

[Stu]

It's very different. This whole porpoising phenomena is happening because the car is being forced (sucked) down, which leads to even more floor sealing, which leads to even more suction. If you let the floor touch the ground and there is no separation in diffuser (ie no floor stalling) then the car will be forced down more and more as the speed gets higher.

Sounds daft, but what if they had a block there that was hitting the ground? Obvilously it would have to be at the minimum ride height, but I wonder if the floor is at the minimum height. In effect, the block is 75mm off the ground, but the floor is 100mm. Which when compressed allows the floor to be 25mm off the ground, which could be enough to stop the bouncing. Probably a very radical idea though and completely wrong.

I think the teams want the floor to hit the ground actually, so they will not put any skid blocks there even if they were allowed to. The trick is to allow the edges of the floor to seal against the ground, but make a little relief area near the throat to prevent the choking. You will see the teams cut a slit and put some flaps to do this, and to still make the floor edge work when the ride heights comes up. Mercedes interestingly has not put on any device like that yet.

This is expressly banned within the regulations…

[PlatinumZealot]

Sounds daft, but what if they had a block there that was hitting the ground? Obvilously it would have to be at the minimum ride height, but I wonder if the floor is at the minimum height. In effect, the block is 75mm off the ground, but the floor is 100mm. Which when compressed allows the floor to be 25mm off the ground, which could be enough to stop the bouncing. Probably a very radical idea though and completely wrong.

I think the teams want the floor to hit the ground actually, so they will not put any skid blocks there even if they were allowed to. The trick is to allow the edges of the floor to seal against the ground, but make a little relief area near the throat to prevent the choking. You will see the teams cut a slit and put some flaps to do this, and to still make the floor edge work when the ride heights comes up. Mercedes interestingly has not put on any device like that yet.

This is expressly banned within the regulations…

FIA can only check this when the car is static, so it's fair game until some sort of flexing tests are put in place. Ross Brawn is working on this.

[AR3-GP]

Because it's not really being forced into the ground, but rather skirting just above. It's no different to the front wing endplates which have been drooping to the ground for years before 2022.

It's very different. This whole porpoising phenomena is happening because the car is being forced (sucked) down, which leads to even more floor sealing, which leads to even more suction. If you let the floor touch the ground and there is no separation in diffuser (ie no floor stalling) then the car will be forced down more and more as the speed gets higher.

Front wing works in ground effect too. For years Red Bull front wing endplates have been skirting on the ground, being driven to the ground by roll and suction. So why is it a big deal that the edge of the floor (which has the least suction on it) is scraping the ground?

[Vanja #66]

Would it need to actually touch the surface? If it was suspension locked to bottom out with say 20mm tyre movement allowed, could that be 'sealed off' from the sides with pressure or a vortex along the floor edge?
could movement from that point up could be controlled to keep it slow enough?

That could work, but then you'd have a problem of locking the suspension and designing parts which can take those loads on. Not to mention dynamic bump loads they'd have to endure. On top of that, I doubt it would be legal to restrict suspension travel outside the damper travel. And if you'd restrict the damper, sealing would probably pop-off very quickly.

Front wing works in ground effect too. For years Red Bull front wing endplates have been skirting on the ground, being driven to the ground by roll and suction. So why is it a big deal that the edge of the floor (which has the least suction on it) is scraping the ground?

There's an entire plank right down the middle of the floor. To prevent any travel, you'd need to let the plank hit the ground and stay there - and then drag it across the straights for about 30-40s per lap. The loads exerted onto the plank and skid blocks would be substantial, 200 kg and up easily. Not quite the same as skirting one wing footplate in high speed corners, where the load is barely 1-2 kilos.

[AR3-GP]

Would it need to actually touch the surface? If it was suspension locked to bottom out with say 20mm tyre movement allowed, could that be 'sealed off' from the sides with pressure or a vortex along the floor edge?
could movement from that point up could be controlled to keep it slow enough?

That could work, but then you'd have a problem of locking the suspension and designing parts which can take those loads on. Not to mention dynamic bump loads they'd have to endure. On top of that, I doubt it would be legal to restrict suspension travel outside the damper travel. And if you'd restrict the damper, sealing would probably pop-off very quickly.

Front wing works in ground effect too. For years Red Bull front wing endplates have been skirting on the ground, being driven to the ground by roll and suction. So why is it a big deal that the edge of the floor (which has the least suction on it) is scraping the ground?

There's an entire plank right down the middle of the floor. To prevent any travel, you'd need to let the plank hit the ground and stay there - and then drag it across the straights for about 30-40s per lap. The loads exerted onto the plank and skid blocks would be substantial, 200 kg and up easily. Not quite the same as skirting one wing footplate in high speed corners, where the load is barely 1-2 kilos.

Are we talking about the same thing? I was talking about the edge of the floor in front of the rear tire.

[Vanja #66]

The initial idea was to let the car/floor down to the ground in straights and keep it like that by having a floor geometry which wouldn't choke in those conditions. The first part that would hit the ground in that case would be skid blocks and the plank. Floor edges would go down on their own, but the car wouldn't lean on them in any case.

[PhillipM]

Why would you have any problem locking the suspension, that's exactly what's already done with snubbers

[warpomex]

Why would you have any problem locking the suspension, that's exactly what's already done with snubbers

Locking a suspension is a very bad thing and snubbers are a last resort. It's just so to minimize impact on the chassis from the suspension bottoming (badly).

A locked suspension is one that will not be ready to take the next bump and will likely bounce, lose traction and control.

Ideally, you want to use all of your suspension travel but not bottoming hard.

[AR3-GP]

The initial idea was to let the car/floor down to the ground in straights and keep it like that by having a floor geometry which wouldn't choke in those conditions. The first part that would hit the ground in that case would be skid blocks and the plank. Floor edges would go down on their own, but the car wouldn't lean on them in any case.

Why do we care about the floor on the ground on the straights? It's the corners that matter. The roll (although small) of the chassis does cause the outer floor edge to lean onto the ground. This is visible in many of the videos during the Bahrain test.