Mercedes W13

[chrisc90]

Amus says a new floor is coming for the race,, just as I predicted.

Maybe scarbs knows something we don't... like Pat Symonds.

Lets suppose Mercedes know already the way to solve the issue.. in a way that is better than what we saw at testing.. Do you want your rivals to copy your solution from the test

I believe the other teams have it sorted. Especially what was seen on the last day of testing where cars looked very stable.

There was a interesting article on auto sport about it this morning.

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/why-m ... e/8982186/

[AeroDynamic]

Amus says a new floor is coming for the race,, just as I predicted.

Maybe scarbs knows something we don't... like Pat Symonds.

Lets suppose Mercedes know already the way to solve the issue.. in a way that is better than what we saw at testing.. Do you want your rivals to copy your solution from the test

I believe the other teams have it sorted. Especially what was seen on the last day of testing where cars looked very stable.

There was a interesting article on auto sport about it this morning.

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/why-m ... e/8982186/

I didn't say they didn't have it sorted. But their solution might be a greater compromise or less effective. This is an open possibility. We saw Ferrari, McLaren etc come up with something on their floors quite quickly but it might not the best way to fix it.

[SiLo]

The first reports about weight had Mercedes lighter than Ferrari no? Now suddenly it's heavy and Ferrari is light? So which is it?

[RZS10]

I believe Wolff said they would have preferred +5kg to the minimum weight instead of +3kg which would mean the car is only slightly overweight - or it could have been some classic misdirection.

[NicoS]

Simple those sidepods bring more down force.. thats why the other cars run smooth

That’s a new one. So the Mercedes isn’t making enough downforce? How do you know this?

Just report or vote the post down for technical inaccuracy. Don't respond to the troll.

Unless you provide technical proof, you are not in a position to decide what is "technical" "inaccurate" and downvote for it.
What makes your random opinion any more accurate than others?
Rather provide data and debate his opinion.
sneaky spitefulness is not how we learn. we need to share opinion and data.

[SiLo]

That’s a new one. So the Mercedes isn’t making enough downforce? How do you know this?

Just report or vote the post down for technical inaccuracy. Don't respond to the troll.

Unless you provide technical proof, you are not in a position to decide what is "technical" "inaccurate" and downvote for it.
What makes your random opinion any more accurate than others?
Rather provide data and debate his opinion.
sneaky spitefulness is not how we learn. we need to share opinion and data.

Sidepods do not generate downforce, and if they do, it is insignificant. In most CFD analysis that you can find on sidepods, they are fairly neutral, or create a small amount of lift.

In relation to the system they might play a key role in total downforce creation (which was not stated).

In relation to porpoising, theoretically creating more downforce does not solve the problem, it actually contributes to it as it sucks the floor to the ground faster, potentially propagating the effect at a lower speed, making it more of an issue.

Finally - if the original comment had post the statement as a question, it would have been fine. If it was posed as an opinion it would have been fine. But it was posed as fact, and as such, is incorrect and inaccurate, so I voted it negatively.

I have provided a laymans explanation above at your request as you make a good point about learning.

[NicoS]

Just report or vote the post down for technical inaccuracy. Don't respond to the troll.

Unless you provide technical proof, you are not in a position to decide what is "technical" "inaccurate" and downvote for it.
What makes your random opinion any more accurate than others?
Rather provide data and debate his opinion.
sneaky spitefulness is not how we learn. we need to share opinion and data.

Sidepods do not generate downforce, and if they do, it is insignificant. In most CFD analysis that you can find on sidepods, they are fairly neutral, or create a small amount of lift.

In relation to the system they might play a key role in total downforce creation (which was not stated).

In relation to porpoising, theoretically creating more downforce does not solve the problem, it actually contributes to it as it sucks the floor to the ground faster, potentially propagating the effect at a lower speed, making it more of an issue.

Finally - if the original comment had post the statement as a question, it would have been fine. If it was posed as an opinion it would have been fine. But it was posed as fact, and as such, is incorrect and inaccurate, so I voted it negatively.

I have provided a laymans explanation above at your request as you make a good point about learning.

Thanks.
You missed the fact the sidepods can influence flow over the diffuser that can help manage the "choking" under the floor. maybe sidepod shape does have a huge effect in managing airflow to other parts.
Remember how the Brabham "fan car" used a fan to regulate and influence the "extraction of air trough the diffuser?
The could slow or increase the airflow, thus provide much needed stability.
We have many different sidepod designs this season...

[dans79]

Unless you provide technical proof, you are not in a position to decide what is "technical" "inaccurate" and downvote for it.
What makes your random opinion any more accurate than others?
Rather provide data and debate his opinion.
sneaky spitefulness is not how we learn. we need to share opinion and data.

Sidepods do not generate downforce, and if they do, it is insignificant. In most CFD analysis that you can find on sidepods, they are fairly neutral, or create a small amount of lift.

In relation to the system they might play a key role in total downforce creation (which was not stated).

In relation to porpoising, theoretically creating more downforce does not solve the problem, it actually contributes to it as it sucks the floor to the ground faster, potentially propagating the effect at a lower speed, making it more of an issue.

Finally - if the original comment had post the statement as a question, it would have been fine. If it was posed as an opinion it would have been fine. But it was posed as fact, and as such, is incorrect and inaccurate, so I voted it negatively.

I have provided a laymans explanation above at your request as you make a good point about learning.

Thanks.
You missed the fact the sidepods can influence flow over the diffuser that can help manage the "choking" under the floor. maybe sidepod shape does have a huge effect in managing airflow to other parts.
Remember how the Brabham "fan car" used a fan to regulate and influence the "extraction of air trough the diffuser?
The could slow or increase the airflow, thus provide much needed stability.
We have many different sidepod designs this season...

When they've reached the point of choking/poprusing they need less flow to the diffuser, not more.

[NicoS]

Sidepods do not generate downforce, and if they do, it is insignificant. In most CFD analysis that you can find on sidepods, they are fairly neutral, or create a small amount of lift.

In relation to the system they might play a key role in total downforce creation (which was not stated).

In relation to porpoising, theoretically creating more downforce does not solve the problem, it actually contributes to it as it sucks the floor to the ground faster, potentially propagating the effect at a lower speed, making it more of an issue.

Finally - if the original comment had post the statement as a question, it would have been fine. If it was posed as an opinion it would have been fine. But it was posed as fact, and as such, is incorrect and inaccurate, so I voted it negatively.

I have provided a laymans explanation above at your request as you make a good point about learning.

Thanks.
You missed the fact the sidepods can influence flow over the diffuser that can help manage the "choking" under the floor. maybe sidepod shape does have a huge effect in managing airflow to other parts.
Remember how the Brabham "fan car" used a fan to regulate and influence the "extraction of air trough the diffuser?
The could slow or increase the airflow, thus provide much needed stability.
We have many different sidepod designs this season...

When they've reached the point of choking/poprusing they need less flow to the diffuser, not more.

more flow over beam wing and diffuser top will create low pressure at diffuser exit. thus helping to "evacuate" diffuser. this will minimise the "chocking". its simple, for pressure to remain constant you need to increase the flow if the volume of the vessel reduces.

[smilodon]

I have a question.
Imagine if Mercedes wants the left side of their car with zeropod and the right side with the old one.... I know it wouldn't work, but there's my question...

Is it allowed to make an asymmetric car or they have to make the left and the right side with the same layout?

I don't know of any rule requiring symmetry as long as the bodywork fits within the defined volumes. I also don't know why you would want to do this. Can you expostulate? Oddly enough they have to paint them the same; seems like having two different paint schemes would be helpful for getting sponsors as well as making it easier for us fans to tell them apart........

It was just something that came to my head and I don't remember anything like this. The top teams are going to bring different cars for each circuit, so in an oval circuit (Indianapolis has a little part)... Maybe just a little difference between sides could work better.

[dans79]

Thanks.
You missed the fact the sidepods can influence flow over the diffuser that can help manage the "choking" under the floor. maybe sidepod shape does have a huge effect in managing airflow to other parts.
Remember how the Brabham "fan car" used a fan to regulate and influence the "extraction of air trough the diffuser?
The could slow or increase the airflow, thus provide much needed stability.
We have many different sidepod designs this season...

When they've reached the point of choking/poprusing they need less flow to the diffuser, not more.

more flow over beam wing and diffuser top will create low pressure at diffuser exit. thus helping to "evacuate" diffuser. this will minimise the "chocking". its simple, for pressure to remain constant you need to increase the flow if the volume of the vessel reduces.

You keep assuming they want more DF, or to maintain what they already have. They don't, at the speed the proposing is occurring, they want to shed df and drag, not increase it. That is one of the reason why you see some of the cars are nose high, because they want the rear to squat and stall out the diffuser. Merc's issue right now is that it's not always doing it when and how they want.

[Vanja #66]

Stalling the diffuser causes porpoising in the first place, no team wants that. It's not the same as flat floor with diffuser, it's very different with venturi tunnels.

Teams can either choose to let the excess air bleed out of venturi tunnels to prevent choking them or let more air into the diffuser from the sides. Not sure if current rules allow the second option to be successfully implemented.

[Evie3D]

I have a question.
Imagine if Mercedes wants the left side of their car with zeropod and the right side with the old one.... I know it wouldn't work, but there's my question...

Is it allowed to make an asymmetric car or they have to make the left and the right side with the same layout?

I don't know of any rule requiring symmetry as long as the bodywork fits within the defined volumes. I also don't know why you would want to do this. Can you expostulate? Oddly enough they have to paint them the same; seems like having two different paint schemes would be helpful for getting sponsors as well as making it easier for us fans to tell them apart........

It was just something that came to my head and I don't remember anything like this. The top teams are going to bring different cars for each circuit, so in an oval circuit (Indianapolis has a little part)... Maybe just a little difference between sides could work better.

Not sure if someone has answered you on the symmetry question but from 3.2.3 (p14) of the technical regs:

3.2.3 Symmetry
All bodywork must be nominally symmetrical with respect to Y=0. Consequently, and unless
otherwise specified, any regulation in Article 3 concerning one side of the car will be assumed
to be valid for the other side of the car and references to maximum permissible numbers of
components in Article 3 will also refer to the one side of the car.

https://www.fia.com/sites/default/files ... -02-19.pdf

So no, I don't think they can do something with left/right asymmetric like Bahrain/Barcelona.

[NicoS]

When they've reached the point of choking/poprusing they need less flow to the diffuser, not more.

more flow over beam wing and diffuser top will create low pressure at diffuser exit. thus helping to "evacuate" diffuser. this will minimise the "chocking". its simple, for pressure to remain constant you need to increase the flow if the volume of the vessel reduces.

You keep assuming they want more DF, or to maintain what they already have. They don't, at the speed the proposing is occurring, they want to shed df and drag, not increase it. That is one of the reason why you see some of the cars are nose high, because they want the rear to squat and stall out the diffuser. Merc's issue right now is that it's not always doing it when and how they want.

No, You are assuming I'm assuming.
I made it clear, they want to evacuate the air from under the car, thus reducing "chocking" resulting in a constant airflow under the car, thereby eliminating the sudden loss of "suction".

[w1Y]

So I am no technical expert so I'm asking this as an exploratory question.

The problem with porpoising it that it happens at high speed?

The way to fix it is, if I'm understanding correctly, to have lower volume of air under the car or have air able to somehow leak out the sides? Or is this completely wrong?

Is this why teams have been looking at the edge of the floor? I.e. if you can get the edge of the floor to seal under a certain speed but not seal or do something to the the air at high-speed and also help with air around rear tyres to reduce drag then you may be able to solve porposiong?

If that is the case then it's most likely more difficult to solve where there is a higher overall circuit average speed?

Apologies, im trying to understand the issue Merc face but with very limited technical knowledge.