2022 - McLaren Formula 1 Team

[SmallSoldier]

I know this topic has been done to death but Mclaren is fighting with 1 hand behind their back for years now. They do not have the latest wind tunnel which means they are missing refined data and it is not even in the same country. They need to fly parts back and forward. They also running a primitive racing simulator. The infrastructure deficits to the top teams are huge which Seidl has repeatedly mentioned. He clearly stated not to expect to fight for championships until 2024.

We all here were hoping for a hail mary but these deficits are massive. Lets hope they can turn this around sooner but realistically Mclaren will not be firing on all cylinders until they have "EQUAL" infrastructure to the top teams.

Firstly the cologne wind tunnel is still a very very good tunnel. May not be top drawer anymore but it's still a fine wind tunnel. Second the simulator is not outdated, it still does what it needs.

The car was too conservative and the design direction has failed. That is not the wind tunnel or simulators fault.

Where is the source of your information exactly?

https://www.speedcafe.com/2021/09/29/mc ... nd-tunnel/
"However, it’s now in need of an upgrade as technology has evolved beyond what its current system can do."
"“There’s data we simply cannot get at the moment with the facility we’re in."
"we’re definitely missing some more refined data and knowledge and information that we would get otherwise.
“So [we’re] super impatient to get that bit of information and help us take the next step.”

<------- Seidl is very clear in his words. They are missing refined data, Knowledge and information from these outdated wind tunnel facilities. That's a major handicap from the wind tunnel.

Seidl clearly states the old simulator cannot do what new simulators can do. The words are very clear. Not doing something as well is 1 thing. But not being able to do certain things at all that new systems can is a major major issue.

Seidl has repeatedly made these statements in countless interviews.
Trying to blame the car being conservative maybe also plays a role, sure, it could be a combination of factors.
But the outdated wind tunnel and simulator is playing a massive role in the cars poor performance relative to the top teams that do have the latest facilities.

Also Maybe that is a reason why the top teams all came with aggresive designs as they can fine tune using all the extra refined data, knowledge and information to make aggresive designs work something Mclaren just cannot generate or do at this stage.
That could also be the reason or part of the reason the car was conservative exacerbating the problems

Good post… I will disagree though in regards to the car being “conservative”, that’s an assumption that has not technical background behind it, beyond how someone perceives it “looks”… As this season is already showing, CFD eyes don’t work, everyone was quick before testing to dismiss Ferrari and even argue that the car was “draggy” (before it even hit the track) because it “looked” wider than others and they have proven that it wasn’t the case, similar situation with Mercedes and their extremely small sidepods, a lot of people were already given them the championship based on how it looked.

We would even need to discuss what is “conservative” about the car, at least for me it is pretty innovative compared to the rest, wide sidepods, no undercut, different tunnel treatment to the rest, moving air from the T-Tray above the entrance to the tunnels, the first to bring the flaps to the floor (copied by Ferrari), a completely new suspension layout, going pull rod in the front and push rod in the rear… So because it doesn’t look “different” it means that it is “conservative”? I’m afraid that it is an inaccurate statement.

The car was managing porpoising better than anyone else out of the gate, while running pretty low… To the point that some teams were even wondering about it’s legality.

The Team never said they were going to be fighting for WDC or WCC this year, they tried to manage expectations after the first day of testing in Barcelona… Is the fans that have hyped the team and created unfounded expectations and now feel that they were done wrong by the team I guess… Furthermore, we haven’t even had a race yet and some even have started with comments in regards to the future of the team, which is absurd in itself.

I just hope that the level of toxicity in this thread comes down a bit and that those that feel wronged by the team or are extremely disappointed, don’t spoil this place for the rest of us.

[JordanMugen]

The car was too conservative and the design direction has failed. That is not the wind tunnel or simulators fault.

How do you know that? Is that speculation or is it backed by any info?

James Key:

The car itself as a platform is working well. Mechanically it’s fine, Aerodynamically it does what it’s supposed to do.

The drivers aren’t finding the extremes that we had in last year’s car, in terms of balance and difficulty. It’s a lot more consistent in that respect.

https://the-race.com/formula-1/is-mclar ... -a-crisis/

One interpretation is that they hit the performance target, but their target was too low compared to the competition.

Somehow the car "lacks grip" (compared to the competition) even though the mechanicals work correctly and the aerodynamics work correctly. What else could explain that other than overly conservative design targets?

James Key:

We need more grip – aerodynamically, mechanically.

That's not what he said at all, that's your interpretation of the quote.

Why else would a car lack grip if it is mechanically fine and the aerodynamics work correctly?

For some reason McLaren are comparing themselves to Mercedes and not to the pole-sitting Ferrari which is kind of strange too, given McLaren's target to win the championships:

Andreas Seidl:

We miss around a second to Mercedes. That’s the best reference for us we can have. And that’s what we’re focusing on as a team.

Ok so Peter Prodromou is the Aerodynamicist, James Key is the chassis man. Also I noticed Andrea Stella and Piers Thynne. They seem important names in F1. I remember all of them. So what happened and the technical team was unable to give another step up when they did that so well the last 3 years.

Pat Fry is the one who fixed the 2018 car before Key arrived. Not to say I don't have confidence in Key, Key is obviously a good operator too.

[Airshifter]

The car was too conservative and the design direction has failed. That is not the wind tunnel or simulators fault.

How do you know that? Is that speculation or is it backed by any info?

James Key:

The car itself as a platform is working well. Mechanically it’s fine, Aerodynamically it does what it’s supposed to do.

The drivers aren’t finding the extremes that we had in last year’s car, in terms of balance and difficulty. It’s a lot more consistent in that respect.

https://the-race.com/formula-1/is-mclar ... -a-crisis/

One interpretation is that they hit the performance target, but their target was too low compared to the competition.

Somehow the car "lacks grip" (compared to the competition) even though the mechanicals work correctly and the aerodynamics work correctly. What else could explain that other than overly conservative design targets?

James Key:

We need more grip – aerodynamically, mechanically.

That's not what he said at all, that's your interpretation of the quote.

Why else would a car lack grip if it is mechanically fine and the aerodynamics work correctly?

Good scoop, even if it's rather distressing in terms of long term hope for speedy improvement. It would be a shame to think they just aimed too low when setting their performance goals.

[Mclarensenna]

Firstly the cologne wind tunnel is still a very very good tunnel. May not be top drawer anymore but it's still a fine wind tunnel. Second the simulator is not outdated, it still does what it needs.

The car was too conservative and the design direction has failed. That is not the wind tunnel or simulators fault.

Where is the source of your information exactly?

https://www.speedcafe.com/2021/09/29/mc ... nd-tunnel/
"However, it’s now in need of an upgrade as technology has evolved beyond what its current system can do."
"“There’s data we simply cannot get at the moment with the facility we’re in."
"we’re definitely missing some more refined data and knowledge and information that we would get otherwise.
“So [we’re] super impatient to get that bit of information and help us take the next step.”

<------- Seidl is very clear in his words. They are missing refined data, Knowledge and information from these outdated wind tunnel facilities. That's a major handicap from the wind tunnel.

Seidl clearly states the old simulator cannot do what new simulators can do. The words are very clear. Not doing something as well is 1 thing. But not being able to do certain things at all that new systems can is a major major issue.

Seidl has repeatedly made these statements in countless interviews.
Trying to blame the car being conservative maybe also plays a role, sure, it could be a combination of factors.
But the outdated wind tunnel and simulator is playing a massive role in the cars poor performance relative to the top teams that do have the latest facilities.

Also Maybe that is a reason why the top teams all came with aggresive designs as they can fine tune using all the extra refined data, knowledge and information to make aggresive designs work something Mclaren just cannot generate or do at this stage.
That could also be the reason or part of the reason the car was conservative exacerbating the problems

Good post… I will disagree though in regards to the car being “conservative”, that’s an assumption that has not technical background behind it, beyond how someone perceives it “looks”… As this season is already showing, CFD eyes don’t work, everyone was quick before testing to dismiss Ferrari and even argue that the car was “draggy” (before it even hit the track) because it “looked” wider than others and they have proven that it wasn’t the case, similar situation with Mercedes and their extremely small sidepods, a lot of people were already given them the championship based on how it looked.

We would even need to discuss what is “conservative” about the car, at least for me it is pretty innovative compared to the rest, wide sidepods, no undercut, different tunnel treatment to the rest, moving air from the T-Tray above the entrance to the tunnels, the first to bring the flaps to the floor (copied by Ferrari), a completely new suspension layout, going pull rod in the front and push rod in the rear… So because it doesn’t look “different” it means that it is “conservative”? I’m afraid that it is an inaccurate statement.

The car was managing porpoising better than anyone else out of the gate, while running pretty low… To the point that some teams were even wondering about it’s legality.

The Team never said they were going to be fighting for WDC or WCC this year, they tried to manage expectations after the first day of testing in Barcelona… Is the fans that have hyped the team and created unfounded expectations and now feel that they were done wrong by the team I guess… Furthermore, we haven’t even had a race yet and some even have started with comments in regards to the future of the team, which is absurd in itself.

I just hope that the level of toxicity in this thread comes down a bit and that those that feel wronged by the team or are extremely disappointed, don’t spoil this place for the rest of us.

Thank you and well said. I actually was going to go on a huge rant about how can armchair experts look at cars and tell which is conservative and which is not , but just gave the benefit of the doubt by going along with the hypothesis Mclaren is conersavative, to explain my original point of the huge infrastructure deficit Mclaren is facing and so many here are completely downplaying the impact it makes to a cars performance whether the design looks conservative or not. But yes you nailed all the points about Mclaren being conservative as there are quite a few innovations on it this year.

yes the toxicity is a bit extreme i agree, especially all these huge expectations and negative reactions. The comments i am seeing not just here but other forums today especially is insane. Ric is done and should be replaced by Hulk or Piastri, Key needs to go he is useless, Brown is finished, Mclaren will be bankrupt soon etc etc. And all from 1 qualy session mind you. The future of the team is in good hands and i think once the latest infrastructure is fully in place Mclaren is going to do very big things in the next few years

[JordanMugen]

"Key needs to go he is useless"

Bit of an extreme interpretation! It's more that it is not that clear if Key is more skilled than Fry, so why were McLaren so eager to replace Fry with Key, given Fry had done such a good job?

Fry is the one who did the graft to fix the problems of the 2018 McLaren. Key has obviously been fine-tuning that car since, and this is the first time Key has been responsible for a new McLaren concept.

[SmallSoldier]

The car was too conservative and the design direction has failed. That is not the wind tunnel or simulators fault.

How do you know that? Is that speculation or is it backed by any info?

James Key:

The car itself as a platform is working well. Mechanically it’s fine, Aerodynamically it does what it’s supposed to do.

The drivers aren’t finding the extremes that we had in last year’s car, in terms of balance and difficulty. It’s a lot more consistent in that respect.

https://the-race.com/formula-1/is-mclar ... -a-crisis/

One interpretation is that they hit the performance target, but their target was too low compared to the competition.

Somehow the car "lacks grip" (compared to the competition) even though the mechanicals work correctly and the aerodynamics work correctly. What else could explain that other than overly conservative design targets?

James Key:

We need more grip – aerodynamically, mechanically.

That's not what he said at all, that's your interpretation of the quote.

Why else would a car lack grip if it is mechanically fine and the aerodynamics work correctly?

For some reason McLaren are comparing themselves to Mercedes and not to the pole-sitting Ferrari which is kind of strange too, given McLaren's target to win the championships:

Andreas Seidl:

We miss around a second to Mercedes. That’s the best reference for us we can have. And that’s what we’re focusing on as a team.

Ok so Peter Prodromou is the Aerodynamicist, James Key is the chassis man. Also I noticed Andrea Stella and Piers Thynne. They seem important names in F1. I remember all of them. So what happened and the technical team was unable to give another step up when they did that so well the last 3 years.

Pat Fry is the one who fixed the 2018 car before Key arrived. Not to say I don't have confidence in Key, Key is obviously a good operator too.

I interpret Key’s comments as the car not having a particular problem, meaning it’s balanced… It’s not changing behavior mid corner for example… The aero is working as intended, not talking about general downforce, but there is correlation and the vortices to seal the floor are happening and working as intended… From a mechanical stand point, the suspension is working as expected also.

The lack of grip could be part of the lack of setup time and further understanding of the car.

In regards to Seidl comments comparing themselves to Mercedes, is because both have the same PU, therefore the best reference point in regards to the car’s performance.

[runningmanz]

Glory hunting plastic fans everywhere, what a state this thread is in. Please do stop watching, It'll stop my eyes bleeding from reading this tripe.

Clearly disappointed, team is on the back foot and will take some time to get up to speed. Car is looking better on race pace, so let's see tomorrow where we lie on that front.

Couldn't agree more, I said the same after reading some of the comments. Anyone who claims they are stopping watching and unsubscribing from social media channels after one qualifying session are utterly pathetic and in no way a fan of McLaren or F1.

This forum has quickly become like a facebook comment section, full of people spewing utter garbage with zero 'technical' insight.

If you think this is bad, check the Autosport forum.its a disgrace calling for mass sackings blah blah. Let's see how we go in the race and what the team finds in the post weekend analysis.

[Ground Effect]

"Key needs to go he is useless"

Bit of an extreme interpretation! It's more that it is not that clear if Key is more skilled than Fry, so why were McLaren so eager to replace Fry with Key, given Fry had done such a good job?

Fry is the one who did the graft to fix the problems of the 2018 McLaren. Key has obviously been fine-tuning that car since, and this is the first time Key has been responsible for a new McLaren concept.

No doubting Fry did a great job with the MCL34, after the defective MCL33. But as I remember, Fry's car was the origin of the low speed issues. Previously, McLaren had been strong on tracks with those sort of corners. Even the 33 wasn't awful at Barcelona, Monaco, Singapore. That said, the problem seems to still be there.

[genarro]

Glory hunting plastic fans everywhere, what a state this thread is in. Please do stop watching, It'll stop my eyes bleeding from reading this tripe.

Clearly disappointed, team is on the back foot and will take some time to get up to speed. Car is looking better on race pace, so let's see tomorrow where we lie on that front.

Couldn't agree more, I said the same after reading some of the comments. Anyone who claims they are stopping watching and unsubscribing from social media channels after one qualifying session are utterly pathetic and in no way a fan of McLaren or F1.

This forum has quickly become like a facebook comment section, full of people spewing utter garbage with zero 'technical' insight.

If you think this is bad, check the Autosport forum.its a disgrace calling for mass sackings blah blah. Let's see how we go in the race and what the team finds in the post weekend analysis.

You got that right

I have been reading these forums on f1 technical for a long time and made an acc for commenting a couple of years ago. What has this thread come is just sad...

Guys you all need to chill, this is becoming unreadable. According to Key the car is a good platform to develop so there seems we don't have a mcl33 on our hands. We are currently racing in Bahrain where the preseason test were taking place. We did the least amount of running here so it's clearly we didn't get the chance to dial the car in. The Merc engine seems to be some part of the deficit. Let's see in the next race weekend where every team will have to start from the beginning.

At this moment Mclaren are giving 150% in investigating where everything went wrong and I'm sure we will bounce back.

[_cerber1]

No doubting Fry did a great job with the MCL34, after the defective MCL33. But as I remember, Fry's car was the origin of the low speed issues. Previously, McLaren had been strong on tracks with those sort of corners. Even the 33 wasn't awful at Barcelona, Monaco, Singapore. That said, the problem seems to still be there.

Pat Fry arrived too late at McLaren to have a significant impact on MCL34, most of the bugs were fixed without him.

[genarro]

That's not what he said at all, that's your interpretation of the quote.

Do you maybe know what is the problem? Is it a fundamental design problem or just underdevelopment due to lack of running?

Did Mercedes had an idea that the engine would be so much down on power?

I feel we are just panicking and that when the European tracks will come the pecking order will sort itself out.

[Ground Effect]

A few have talked about the Mercedes PU being an issue, personally, I haven't seen any reports suggesting that. But does anyone think there might be an issue with the fuel specifically?

[runningmanz]

This brake problem has put us behind the 8 ball and what we have here still is only an interim fix. Its way too early to call the car a dud without seeing what a proper brake fix, more track time and actual optimization and upgrades brings over a few different tracks. The understeer is horrible here though which is Dan's achilles heel so they need to get on top of that somehow for a start. Its been a problem for a while with the McLaren which Dan also mentioned last year and Key acknowledged so not sure why its still so bad with this new design.

Interesting again to note that when Dan joined Renault in 2019 the car was not even a podium challenging car yet taking onboard his feedback they had a very strong 2020 carried by Dan where there were multiple podiums. He knows from experience what makes a good handling car.

"But Ricciardo is an energetic and inspiring character and during the early races when he was struggling to adapt to a car that was very limited on corner entry and not compatible with his style, his attitude ensured the team wanted him to do well. This might sound obvious, but many an experience and proven driver has had the opposite effect when they’ve joined an underachieving team.

This helped to create a constructive environment where Ricciardo was able to benchmark the performance of the Renault against his experience of the Red Bull. That kind of knowledge is valuable and can help to ensure the right characteristics are pursued and the correct changes are made.

That Renault has made a good step from 2019 to 2020 proves this. The car was immediately better in terms of getting the power down at corner exit, but subsequent improvements in terms of rear downforce, upgrade packages further forward on the car that have worked far better than last year’s attempts have made Renault into a genuine all-rounder.

The driver does not design or engineer the car, so the responsibility for these improvements lies within the walls of Enstone and Viry, but Ricciardo has had a key part to play in terms of input into this process. Not only does everyone know that he’s a winning driver, which gives his opinions great strength, but he appears to have remained constructive with his contributions even when frustrated."

https://the-race.com/formula-1/is-ricci ... o-renault/

This is also taking nothing away from Lando's feedback but he has only known a McLaren with its unique traits and limitations. I just hope the team has a fundamentally sound car that just needs some more tweaking and upgrades to remove some of these current issues and get us competitive again. Plenty of time to have a red hot crack at finding the right solutions so I'm giving until at least 4 or 5 races in before making any more judgements.

[_cerber1]

[DragonSGC]

Watching F1tv Tech talk and Sam Collins doing his pitlane walk when at the Mclaren garage and noting the differences in the front brake ducts he mentioned that the front cake tins no longer have a cutout on the top like they did during pre season testing. I do have to wonder if the team were trying to be sneaky and get some of the old style front tyre warming tricks back and its gone wrong in the desert heat, lack of front tyre warming at least goes some way to explain the terrible understeer. If today's race pace is more competitive (not race winning put we are closer % wise to the front runners in lap time) then perhaps it getting a chunk of performance would simply be getting into the correct window over one lap. Then once that has been accomplished a diagnosis of where to get the rest of the performance (upgrades etc) can be done and solutions made and implemented.