Mercedes W13

[GrizzleBoy]

Could it be the case that Merc are not able to get what looks to be a quite underdeveloped floor (compared to those around them) working hard enough without the barn door rear wing helping create low pressure at the back of the car?

If the floor is efficient enough to make the required downforce on its own in various situations, would a shallower rear wing reduce the amount of rearward downforce balance at high speed and somehow stop the bouncing? Maybe allow the car to be lowered more at the rear due to less overall downforce at a given speed?

Have we seen merc trialling low downforce rear wings at all and if not, could this be what toto referred to as "overwinged due to lack of parts"?

[gluon]

Could it be the case that Merc are not able to get what looks to be a quite underdeveloped floor (compared to those around them) working hard enough without the barn door rear wing helping create low pressure at the back of the car?

If the floor is efficient enough to make the required downforce on its own in various situations, would a shallower rear wing reduce the amount of rearward downforce balance at high speed and somehow stop the bouncing? Maybe allow the car to be lowered more at the rear due to less overall downforce at a given speed?

Have we seen merc trialling low downforce rear wings at all and if not, could this be what toto referred to as "overwinged due to lack of parts"?

Mercedes openly stated that they needed to run a higher ride height to minimise porpoising. That instantly reduces the amount of downforce generated by the floor, so it sounds natural that they need to run more rear wing to compensate the overall levels of downforce.

IMHO the floor doesn't necessarily look less developed than others. It might just be that due to their sidepod philosophy, they need a different kind of floor, which looks less complex.

[AR3-GP]

Ride height comparison Mercedes vs Haas. Mercedes seems to be a bit higher at the front/middle and perhaps the same or even lower at the back. The perspective might be a bit misleading, but maybe a bit of negative rake on Mercedes.

https://i.imgur.com/vaCZWQ2.jpg

I'm always skeptical of rideheight comparisons because of the pitching caused by accelerating and braking.

The best images are going to come from the pitlane. Track images are extremely unreliable.

[nimoraca]

Don't know if somebody already posted this but its a great analysis of the speed difference between Hamilton quali lap and Leclers.

Basically, most of the difference comes from the breaking where Lewis breaks much earlier. Ferarri also has a slightly higher top speed on all straights but not by much. Mercedes is faster in every single slow corner though.

[Just_a_fan]

Don't know if somebody already posted this but its a great analysis of the speed difference between Hamilton quali lap and Leclers.

Basically, most of the difference comes from the breaking where Lewis breaks much earlier. Ferarri also has a slightly higher top speed on all straights but not by much. Mercedes is faster in every single slow corner though.

If you've got a car that's bouncing around, you need to brake earlier to avoid the risk of locking a wheel. Also, by braking slightly earlier, he'll be settling the car.

As braking is one of Hamilton's strong points, if they can get the car to be stable at speed, he'll find time on top of whatever they gain from the aero. Win, win.

[bonjon1979]

It's very clear that the car is being run in a hugely compromised state. If they do manage to sort it out, and run the car in anything like it's proper set up then it looks like it could be an absolute monster. It's a big if though...

[Henri]

Don't know if somebody already posted this but its a great analysis of the speed difference between Hamilton quali lap and Leclers.

Basically, most of the difference comes from the breaking where Lewis breaks much earlier. Ferarri also has a slightly higher top speed on all straights but not by much. Mercedes is faster in every single slow corner though.

Ferrari has better traction.. think they way a weight advantage

[Shakeman]

It's very clear that the car is being run in a hugely compromised state. If they do manage to sort it out, and run the car in anything like it's proper set up then it looks like it could be an absolute monster. It's a big if though...

If we think back to McLaren's 'suspension blockers' all their sims told them it was a massive step forward but in reality, on track it was a very 'peaky' downforce generator which the drivers couldn't rely upon. I remember Jensen saying when it works the grip is on another level but that grip can disappear in an instant.

I think Merc have got a systems that on paper performs amazingly well and in the sim but in the real world the performance is, like McLaren's blockers too 'peaky' to be usable. I looks to me like they're generating too much downforce that their suspension cannot support it, as soon as the floor hits a critical distance they get slammed into the tarmac.

The reason it's not going to be a quick fix or just a new floor is because to not leave performance on the table will require a redesign of their suspension in order to better support the downforce levels they're generating. If they can make the floor less 'peaky' with a suspension that can support higher loads Merc could have a rocket on their hands.

I don't think other teams have fixed their porpoising issues, I don't think many teams are generating anywhere near the downforce from the floor that the Merc is. Look at the McLaren, they didn't solve porpoising, they just don't have any downforce.

We will see floor and suspension development go hand in hand and we'll eventually see nothing but skinny wings on the cars as teams learn to keep their cars sucked to the floor over a wider range of cornering speeds. Suspension development is going to be taken to whole new levels with this formula.

If I'm talking out of my arse please shoot me down.

[bonjon1979]

Don't think you're talking out your arse at all. Really valid points and opinion. I'm not particularly referring to any of the snazzy solutions they might have dreamt up. I'm looking more at how much the drivers are having to leave on the table to get around the track. To still be within 3 tenths is pretty remarkable. They're having to ease onto the brakes, starting much earlier than the Ferrari as the car is so unsettled due to the porpoising/bouncing both on braking, corner entry, and mid-corner as well actually. So it's clear that there is way/way more inherent performance to come just from finding the way to get the car more settled. I admit that's easier said then done, but it's clear to me that there is a heck of a lot more pace available to be unlocked in this package. Whether they will or not is the question!

[AMG.Tzan]

Toto said after the race that they were overwinged because they were "short on parts"!

Does this mean they could have gone for a lower downforce RW but they didn't because they haven't still manufactured one?? I find it amusing since we're talking about Mercedes here!

After all, they never tried a different spec Rear Wing since Day 1 at Barcelona...

P.S. I don't see how they'll manage to finish inside the Top 10 in Jeddah with this RW and so much porpoising...

[Mchamilton]

Toto said after the race that they were overwinged because they were "short on parts"!

Does this mean they could have gone for a lower downforce RW but they didn't because they haven't still manufactured one?? I find it amusing since we're talking about Mercedes here!

After all, they never tried a different spec Rear Wing since Day 1 at Barcelona...

P.S. I don't see how they'll manage to finish inside the Top 10 in Jeddah with this RW and so much porpoising...

I would imagine theyll have a different wing ready for jeddah. They likely wanted to keep using wing they had in testing over the GP weekend so they could test stuff in basically the same conditions.

[Shakeman]

I agree bonbon1979 even in this compromised state the Merc is ahead of the mid field and within touching distance of RB and Ferrari with the promise of a significant step to come hopefully. It's not a McLaren with a multitude of issues.

I can't wait to see images of the RB and Ferrari floors, hopefully not via a serious crash, to see if there's a 'trick' being used.

I wondered also if the floor could be designed to flex up and arch when load is applied to the outer edges? This would make a skirt but also raise the ride height of the floor along the centre line of the car. OK, I really do expect this idea to be shot down but F1 teams are sneaky so-in-sos who do this sort of thing if they think they can get away with it.

[elMaestro]

Toto said after the race that they were overwinged because they were "short on parts"!

Does this mean they could have gone for a lower downforce RW but they didn't because they haven't still manufactured one?? I find it amusing since we're talking about Mercedes here!

After all, they never tried a different spec Rear Wing since Day 1 at Barcelona...

P.S. I don't see how they'll manage to finish inside the Top 10 in Jeddah with this RW and so much porpoising...

I think they will do better in Jeddah considering they have a better understanding of the car and also the surface is smoother over there so they can afford to lower the car a little and also use less wing. Thats just my 2 cents, plus they were also quite ahead of the midfield in Bahrain so i think theyre safe.

[gluon]

Toto said after the race that they were overwinged because they were "short on parts"!

Does this mean they could have gone for a lower downforce RW but they didn't because they haven't still manufactured one?? I find it amusing since we're talking about Mercedes here!

I think that quote has probably been misinterpreted. It's accepted knowledge that Mercedes has a severe porpoising problem and that the only band-aid "solution" before they can actually fix the issue with a new floor, is to raise the car. Raising the car is extremely penalising for many reasons, one of which is that the floor automatically produces less downforce, which must be balanced out by using more wing (draggy downforce).

So I believe "short on parts" really means they don't have a new floor ready to be used yet (the real fix), not a better rear wing. Presumably it would've been easy for Mercedes or any team for that matter to bring along different specs for the wings, even on flyaway races. Maybe Mercedes has a new floor concept already being CFD tested, but it's not been signed off and manufactured yet.

[ringo]

One think I noticed about this car is the shape of the entry of the floor.
The opening is very high towards the middle and flatter on the outer section.
The floors on the other cars have a smoother transition in front profile than the W13. That could be an area they could investigate as well. I will try and get some comparison shots.