2022 Bahrain Grand Prix - Sakhir, March 18 - 20

[Hoffman900]

Just remove MGUH MGUK battery, cables etc

A V6 with variable valve timing and a twin variable-geometry turbo with refuelling during pit stops

That’s an F2/Indycar engine or similar. Makes 600bph, weighs 150kg. Uses lots and lots of gas.

Indycar engine are 2.2 liter, with 1200 rpm limit by rules and 1300 mbar (more in qualify and push-to pass) turbo pressure; actual F1 ICE have more or less the same power wit 0,6 liter less...

The actual ICE, without fuel flow limitation, can exceed 1500bph
yes, racing turbo charged engines usually uses a lot of gas because they use a very rich fuel/air mix for cooling

but

the actual ICE are designed to run poor fuel/air mix so probably a compromise can be found
what about water injection ?

The Audi DTM 2.0L turbo I4 weighs 85kg. 595bhp with a 90kg/hr fuel flow limit. 620hp with push to pass. Brake thermal efficiency 40.5-42%.

[CMSMJ1]

Removed - Come one people. Let it go.

abu bloody dhabi = not related to this race

Thanks

[PlatinumZealot]

I can say I was delighted by the outcome of the race and well entertained at certain laps and events ( )... But I still didn't get raw racing thrill that this track is known to produce even when we had cars that were harder to follow. Three stops here so the stops werent the problem. I think the field spread and the heavy cars is what is preventing frantic racing now.

[SmallSoldier]

I didn't claim that. But it's no secret that they're running simulations in the background, off-site even.
But I don't think the race engineer making decisions instead of the driver is good either.

The amount of information the drivers would need to have available to them in order to make those decisions is what drives the need for constant feedback / information from the wall.

It would be impossible for them to access to every parameter on these cars to make judgements in regards to which settings to use to avoid in most instances, catastrophic failure… They are not in a video game, the wrong setting at the wrong time means a potential DNF.

For the cars to be as fast as they are, they have to run on the limit of most parameters, whether is temperature (engine, brakes, etc), batteries (charge and deployment), fuel consumption, etc… There are effectively an small army of people analyzing this information in real time in order to be able to tell the driver what the optimum or right setting is… Those wouldn’t be decisions the drivers could make on their own.

Limiting / eliminating feedback from the pit wall would end up in cars that are way slower than the current ones (since they wouldn’t be able to drive on the limit) and way less reliable than the current ones… I don’t think that is what F1 wants (and maybe some fans like myself).

Your over-mystifying things. The don't need to be bombarded by information, or have acess to a crazy amount of settings. Leave the drivers a few preset buttons, maybe a knob or two. And they will drive on feel and common sense. Which used to be part of a dirver's skillset. And of course the indications of the car itself. (temperature warnings, fuel level and whatever) There's no reason for them to know anything about the tires or pit stops of others.

That small army is just a money sink, that does not add to racing.

That will just make the cars slower… The amount of information is directly related to the complexity of these cars and the need to extract as much performance as possible from them… If that’s what F1 wants (to make the cars slower) then it’s possible… If they want them to be as fast as possible in within the confines of the current regulations, the small army will be needed.

[S E C T I O]

I see no particular reason for the driver to change brake balance at all.

It's a tool for changing the way the car handles. Again it's a tool in the skilled driver's toolbox.

It's something all of them change automatically like human robots. It distinguishes non of them, but takes away some attention that might be better used.
Might as well make it automatic.

There are some who think just like you. Maybe we are just elderly.

[mzso]

That will just make the cars slower… The amount of information is directly related to the complexity of these cars and the need to extract as much performance as possible from them… If that’s what F1 wants (to make the cars slower) then it’s possible… If they want them to be as fast as possible in within the confines of the current regulations, the small army will be needed.

They want good racing an sustainability. Transferring massive amounts of data form the car, and the off-site onto a different continent even and having simulator rigs running and engineers mulling over it craps on both.

confines of the current regulations,

The regulations are whatever you choose to make them. Including disallowing the transmission of massive amounts of sensor data. And giving no directions to the driver.

[silver]

It's a tool for changing the way the car handles. Again it's a tool in the skilled driver's toolbox.

It's something all of them change automatically like human robots. It distinguishes non of them, but takes away some attention that might be better used.
Might as well make it automatic.

There are some who think just like you. Maybe we are just elderly.

I agree. Simplification is necessary on these F1 cars. Too much tech, too many invisible co-drivers is nauseating. A race engineer, should simply be that, not an electronics tutor.

[SmallSoldier]

That will just make the cars slower… The amount of information is directly related to the complexity of these cars and the need to extract as much performance as possible from them… If that’s what F1 wants (to make the cars slower) then it’s possible… If they want them to be as fast as possible in within the confines of the current regulations, the small army will be needed.

They want good racing an sustainability. Transferring massive amounts of data form the car, and the off-site onto a different continent even and having simulator rigs running and engineers mulling over it craps on both.

confines of the current regulations,

The regulations are whatever you choose to make them. Including disallowing the transmission of massive amounts of sensor data. And giving no directions to the driver.

I don’t think that reducing the amount of data will improve the racing, but that’s just my opinion… I do strongly believe that it will make the cars run way slower, since they will have to build a lot of safety margin to avoid continuous DNF’s, that personally is something I don’t want… but that’s just my preference.

I personally like the fact that is as complex as it is, that they push the limits as much as they do, find it fascinating… If I want simpler racing, there are plenty of other series that I watch too.

If the idea of simplifying things would be what F1 think is best for them, they will go for it… If been ridiculously complex and the fastest car racing series is what they think is best for them, we will continue to have what we do now… I do believe that it is more challenging to drive these cars that it was when it was “simpler”, but is just my opinion.

[Stu]

I think this highlights another plague of F1. The race engineers doing half the driving...
And they of course much of what they say is based on simulations running on computers. Making races as artificial and uneventful as possible.

I don't understand why they didn't fix this at once when they disbarred the quali mode settings in 2020. Once they establish a single engine mode in the parc ferme, it should include all energy deployment settings too. So that the driver can simply focus on driving, rather than worry about deployment settings and be tutored by the race engineer. Just like they found the best compromise for ICE settings, I am sure they will find out the right compromise for energy deployment too.

Its only the same as DRS or brake balance.

Quite, however they are still not allowed adjustable ant-roll bars, as they were/are considered a driver aid!

[Hoffman900]

I don't understand why they didn't fix this at once when they disbarred the quali mode settings in 2020. Once they establish a single engine mode in the parc ferme, it should include all energy deployment settings too. So that the driver can simply focus on driving, rather than worry about deployment settings and be tutored by the race engineer. Just like they found the best compromise for ICE settings, I am sure they will find out the right compromise for energy deployment too.

Its only the same as DRS or brake balance.

Quite, however they are still not allowed adjustable ant-roll bars, as they were/are considered a driver aid!

Which is ridiculous because you have been able to do that for 55 years now.

[Stu]

Its only the same as DRS or brake balance.

Quite, however they are still not allowed adjustable ant-roll bars, as they were/are considered a driver aid!

Which is ridiculous because you have been able to do that for 55 years now.

Agreed, almost all other categories allow it!!

[Scorpaguy]

..or in the quest to improve racing and diminish driver aids, work on the other end of the tech spectrum. Simply ax off a meter in car length, a half meter in width, increase horsepower, decrease traction. Racing will improve.

[Tommy Cookers]

... The actual ICE, without fuel flow limitation, can exceed 1500bph
... racing turbo charged engines usually uses a lot of gas because they use a very rich fuel/air mix for cooling
... the actual ICE are designed to run poor fuel/air mix so probably a compromise can be found
.... what about water injection ?

IMO the above is old thinking (ie it's wrong in today's engines)

'very rich fuel/air mix for cooling' gave reduced flame temperature allowing more 'boost' without detonation
(because the fuel was largely unvapourised the flame front was cooled by fuel boiling ?) - said Sam Heron
but today's 400 bar direct injection leaves little fuel unvapourised
the overall gas temperature is set by the charge cooler so doesn't need cooling by in-cylinder fuel boiling

the 'poor fuel/air mix' isn't poor - it works by heat dilution
the surplus air having been efficiently provided
the lower in-cylinder temperature disproportionately reduces the necessary heat robbing by coolant
so disproportionately improving the in-cylinder energy content for conversion to work

'the actual ICE without fuel flow limitation' will need disproportionately more in-cylinder heat removed by coolant
so it won't make 1500 bhp
'water injection' only takes heat that is takeable by the charge cooler
in-cylinder water boiling will reduce the energy available for expansion


with today's F1 transmissions the 'turbo' could be coupled mechanically to the crankshaft ie no MGs etc
ok energy storage/deployment is quite good for racing

[mzso]

If the idea of simplifying things would be what F1 think is best for them, they will go for it… If been ridiculously complex and the fastest car racing series is what they think is best for them, we will continue to have what we do now… I do believe that it is more challenging to drive these cars that it was when it was “simpler”, but is just my opinion.

I think you're a tad misguided. Pushing buttons on order I don't consider driving even, much less racing. And driving to whatever directions the engineer gives, just takes away from actual driver skill and performance, it makes it robotic.

I don't even think it's more challenging. A voice in your ear always whispers the ideal setting, and you just drive the car the easiest way in a given circumstance.

[mzso]

..or in the quest to improve racing and diminish driver aids, work on the other end of the tech spectrum. Simply ax off a meter in car length, a half meter in width, increase horsepower, decrease traction. Racing will improve.

???
I definitely want the cars shorter, but it has nothing to do with driver aids. There's no point in increasing power.