2022 Oracle | Red Bull Racing F1 Team

[PlatinumZealot]

According to that graph the fuel would be at 57 degrees celcius before it reaches V/L=20..

I will assume that graph is valid at 1 atmosphere.

Either way it will boil down to a temperature issue. Maybe the location of the lines are near something hot.

[Leonvanhaandel]

If the tank wasnt venting, it could draw a vacuum. The volume of the fuel has to be replaced by something. I have seen collapsed gas tanks bc of improper venting.

[dans79]

A vortex tube, by definition, does not heat or cool a fluid (air or liquid), it separates the mixture of hot and cold molecules in a given volume.

I wonder why they don't use this type of stuff already.

Regardless of the semantics, I think The FIA would say a vortex tube is in violation of the technical regulations!

[Zynerji]

A vortex tube, by definition, does not heat or cool a fluid (air or liquid), it separates the mixture of hot and cold molecules in a given volume.

I wonder why they don't use this type of stuff already.

Regardless of the semantics, I think The FIA would say a vortex tube is in violation of the technical regulations!

A quick simulation proves energy is not removed from the system. By definition, it's not "cooled"

If they emotionally overrode the immutable words of the regulation, it would be disgusting.

[ispano6]

A vortex tube, by definition, does not heat or cool a fluid (air or liquid), it separates the mixture of hot and cold molecules in a given volume.

I wonder why they don't use this type of stuff already.

Regardless of the semantics, I think The FIA would say a vortex tube is in violation of the technical regulations!

A quick simulation proves energy is not removed from the system. By definition, it's not "cooled"

If they emotionally overrode the immutable words of the regulation, it would be disgusting.

There is a difference between design and device!

[ringo]

The fuel got hot and there was some flashing of gasoline itself or ethanol taking place inside the pump.
But what is also possible, is there could be a hot area insider the pump, near the rotor and seal that is not sufficiently cooled and based on the shape of the pump the vapor space develops.
I think the fuel tank was most likely low and the temperature of the fuel may have been very high. Possibly some equipment would have been adjacent to the tank or where the fuel lines are and warming the fuel. Who knows maybe an intercooler pipe or something else.
Maybe the fix it will insulation.

[etusch]

The fuel got hot and there was some flashing of gasoline itself or ethanol taking place inside the pump.
But what is also possible, is there could be a hot area insider the pump, near the rotor and seal that is not sufficiently cooled and based on the shape of the pump the vapor space develops.
I think the fuel tank was most likely low and the temperature of the fuel may have been very high. Possibly some equipment would have been adjacent to the tank or where the fuel lines are and warming the fuel. Who knows maybe an intercooler pipe or something else.
Maybe the fix it will insulation.

Isn't it up to designer of the pump to calculate these possibilities and produce the part as reliable as cope with that heats ?

[Just_a_fan]

A vortex tube, by definition, does not heat or cool a fluid (air or liquid), it separates the mixture of hot and cold molecules in a given volume.

I wonder why they don't use this type of stuff already.

Regardless of the semantics, I think The FIA would say a vortex tube is in violation of the technical regulations!

A quick simulation proves energy is not removed from the system. By definition, it's not "cooled"

If they emotionally overrode the immutable words of the regulation, it would be disgusting.

If they used such a device and separated hot from cold, what would they do with the two different streams? If they just used the cold stream, then that would fall foul of the cooling rule because the fuel being used in the system would be cooler than it was. I think they'd catch it with the general rule that says any device intended to get around the rules is illegal.

[ringo]

The fuel got hot and there was some flashing of gasoline itself or ethanol taking place inside the pump.
But what is also possible, is there could be a hot area insider the pump, near the rotor and seal that is not sufficiently cooled and based on the shape of the pump the vapor space develops.
I think the fuel tank was most likely low and the temperature of the fuel may have been very high. Possibly some equipment would have been adjacent to the tank or where the fuel lines are and warming the fuel. Who knows maybe an intercooler pipe or something else.
Maybe the fix it will insulation.

Isn't it up to designer of the pump to calculate these possibilities and produce the part as reliable as cope with that heats ?

The designer would stipulate a minimum required level of fluid for the pump and specific gravity range of the fluid.
And if things get too hot that can change. Or if the pump is used outside of how it is intended to be used. Redbull tend to push the limits with most things. We learned this in Baku last year. They are masters of changing the running conditions of the car from its condition when being inspected. Not implying they are cheating, but they love to push right up against the rules and sometimes compromise their reliability.

[etusch]

The fuel got hot and there was some flashing of gasoline itself or ethanol taking place inside the pump.
But what is also possible, is there could be a hot area insider the pump, near the rotor and seal that is not sufficiently cooled and based on the shape of the pump the vapor space develops.
I think the fuel tank was most likely low and the temperature of the fuel may have been very high. Possibly some equipment would have been adjacent to the tank or where the fuel lines are and warming the fuel. Who knows maybe an intercooler pipe or something else.
Maybe the fix it will insulation.

Isn't it up to designer of the pump to calculate these possibilities and produce the part as reliable as cope with that heats ?

The designer would stipulate a minimum required level of fluid for the pump and specific gravity range of the fluid.
And if things get too hot that can change. Or if the pump is used outside of how it is intended to be used. Redbull tend to push the limits with most things. We learned this in Baku last year. They are masters of changing the running conditions of the car from its condition when being inspected. Not implying they are cheating, but they love to push right up against the rules and sometimes compromise their reliability.

is there any benefit by going so hot with the fuel ? If there is then part supplier must be aware of that they are producing for F1 and F1 engineers can push it to the limit, right ?

[motobaleno]

is there any benefit by going so hot with the fuel ? If there is then part supplier must be aware of that they are producing for F1 and F1 engineers can push it to the limit, right ?

it is only an indirect effect of fuel tank sorrounding devices going hot. and the benefit is obiously aerodynamic because of less cooling volumes/vents. a good F1 engineer pushes to the limit, not beyond it.

[tmoneyr007]

While not as Technical as a F1 car, I still found the information relative.

[taperoo2k]

More fuel is not an option => even more weight and RB18 is too heavy. Probably results into (less ?) similar issues. My guess is they need something to fix the pressure and or get rid of the vapour at high(er) fuel temps. Specially when the engine went back to lower power mode (e.g. at a safety car situation).

This article might help: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vapor_lock

They might need to change the cooling on the fuel system, but that might add more weight to the RB18.
Keeping the temperature of the fuel within a certain margin to avoid a fuel lock shouldn't be too difficult for Red Bull to solve, but it might cost performance. We'll find out at the weekend I guess.

Isn’t fuel cooling not legal?

Using methods that directly cool fuel is not legal. Passively redirecting airflow etc to cool the fuel and PU isn't. I should have said moving weight around that might then damage performance as the centre of gravity of the car might well change. We'll see if this is another of Newey's fast but incredibly fragile cars soon enough.

[taperoo2k]

is there any benefit by going so hot with the fuel ? If there is then part supplier must be aware of that they are producing for F1 and F1 engineers can push it to the limit, right ?

it is only an indirect effect of fuel tank sorrounding devices going hot. and the benefit is obiously aerodynamic because of less cooling volumes/vents. a good F1 engineer pushes to the limit, not beyond it.

A good F1 engineer pushes past the limits and then dials it back to get the right balance between performance and reliability. Newey is always on the edge of this limit. Sometimes he gets it spot on, and other times he designs cars that are fast but not very reliable.

[TNTHead]

Perez on pole !

This is good for RB (and Max also). I think it is good for his development that he is challenged. Nice to see Perez finally delivering. Hopefully he materialises on race day as well.