2022 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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lh13
lh13
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Re: 2022 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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siskue2005 wrote:
lh13 wrote:
26 Mar 2022, 23:02

Now with the new rules, they're struggling like never before, and its seems to be amplified by the lack of their PU advantage. For example, if you swap current PUs for Mercedes, Ferrari and RedBull with their respective '14 PUs, this same Mercedes car, porpoising or not, will run circles around RedBull and Ferrari.
Could you post some data for this, or is it just assumptions?
Assumption/opinion only. I think said I made it clear enough?!

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nevill3
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Location: Monaco

Re: 2022 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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Toto believes they are the third fastest team at the moment with unlocked potential. Many on here see them as failing miserably. I personally think they have teething problems that will take time to sort out but it is a long season. The budget cap may hinder their recovery along with the loss of some personnel to other teams

George has said they now know what their main problem is and are working on a fix, much better than still looking for the cause of their relative poorer performance
Sent from my Commodore PET in 1978

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ringo
230
Joined: 29 Mar 2009, 10:57

Re: 2022 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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I think the Haas is third fastest.
It just does not have an experience enough pilot to drive it.

I think today was the best time for the team to see what does not work on the W13. The race will have safety cars and possibly the team can get more points than they deserve once again.

Despite what we thought, the car is poor in low speed stuff. Medium speed is where it works well.
For Sure!!

Jozsusz
Jozsusz
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Re: 2022 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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lh13 wrote:
26 Mar 2022, 23:02
Generally speaking about Mercedes chassis troubles, I'm of the opinion that Mercedes have never been the top chassis builders. '14 to '16, there was no competition so they had it all easy. I've also read that they used to 'shelve' aero upgrades because they weren't even needed. '17 and '18, Ferrari came up with better chassis, and Mercedes ran with their 'downforce at all cost' philosophy, and their PU supported them. In the end, Ferrari shot themselves in the foot and Mercedes walked away with the titles.

'21 was the first real test for them, as they had to work around the rule change (I won't go into the 'fairness' of the rule change), and they came up short, with RedBull clearly coming up with the better car and were able to close the huge advantage that Mercedes enjoyed in '20.

Now with the new rules, they're struggling like never before, and its seems to be amplified by the lack of their PU advantage. For example, if you swap current PUs for Mercedes, Ferrari and RedBull with their respective '14 PUs, this same Mercedes car, porpoising or not, will run circles around RedBull and Ferrari.

Mercedes might fix their problems in the next 2 races and might be at the sharp end of the grid in no time, and I'll have to eat up my words, but I think it'll take them longer.
Yeah they weren't good in chassis, right.
In 2015 Ferrari was pretty fast, what did Merc do? Built the best chassis for 2016.
On 2018 Ferrari was again very fast, what did they do? Built the best chassis in 2019.
In 2020 they gave more than 1 sec in qualy to everyone. Maybe because the chassis was bad, right?

What's this nonsense, mate?

MuseF1
MuseF1
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Joined: 08 Aug 2005, 01:33
Location: Birmingham, England

Re: 2022 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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lh13 wrote:
26 Mar 2022, 23:02

'21 was the first real test for them, as they had to work around the rule change (I won't go into the 'fairness' of the rule change), and they came up short, with RedBull clearly coming up with the better car and were able to close the huge advantage that Mercedes enjoyed in '20.

Now with the new rules, they're struggling like never before, and its seems to be amplified by the lack of their PU advantage. For example, if you swap current PUs for Mercedes, Ferrari and RedBull with their respective '14 PUs, this same Mercedes car, porpoising or not, will run circles around RedBull and Ferrari.
Feels like you're having to be quite ignorant of what happened between '20-'21 regulations to allow you to arrive at that conclusion.

Due to Covid, rules were pushed back to 2022 and restrictions were put in place so that teams were required to use their 2020 cars for 2021 - The 2020 car itself was split into a number of Areas (front suspension, crash structure etc) which were put into 2 Groups for homologation - Group 1 was homologated in June 2020 (the first race) and Group 2 in September (around Round 9 or 10).

Because Pirelli were having to unexpectedly carry over their tyre build for another year, the rear aero of the 2020 cars were 'scuppered' to keep downforce in check so the tyres could still handle the loads. This 'scuppering' came out initially came about with the initial modified 2021 rules, but further tweaks to the rules came along in August and October 2020.

For all of the above, teams then had 2 'tokens', each token allowed some alteration of one Area of the 2020 car for 2021, essentially no wholesale changes of the 2020 car was allowed.

So it isn't so much that Red Bull 'came up' with a better car for 2021, because nobody fundamentally designed their car with 2021 in mind. It was as much pot luck that a team's 2020 car fared better under 2021 regs with the aero scupprting as it was down down to intentional design. You ignore this very significant element yet merrily discount 7 years of success as well as the glaring obvious hole in this theory where Merc were still competitive through 2021 and in fact was smashing it by the end of the season to the same extent seen in 2020 and proceed to win the WCC.

The team appear to be struggling because of the new rules, not because they are somehow rubbish at building chassis despite being 8-time WCC. Teams can take a fall under reg changes. Tale as old as F1 itself.

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: 2022 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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Many parts on the car that the team don't understand..... Not looking good for the season!
🖐️✌️☝️👀👌✍️🐎🏆🙏

Racing Green in 2028

Hammerfist
Hammerfist
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Re: 2022 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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Jozsusz wrote:
27 Mar 2022, 00:45
lh13 wrote:
26 Mar 2022, 23:02
Generally speaking about Mercedes chassis troubles, I'm of the opinion that Mercedes have never been the top chassis builders. '14 to '16, there was no competition so they had it all easy. I've also read that they used to 'shelve' aero upgrades because they weren't even needed. '17 and '18, Ferrari came up with better chassis, and Mercedes ran with their 'downforce at all cost' philosophy, and their PU supported them. In the end, Ferrari shot themselves in the foot and Mercedes walked away with the titles.

'21 was the first real test for them, as they had to work around the rule change (I won't go into the 'fairness' of the rule change), and they came up short, with RedBull clearly coming up with the better car and were able to close the huge advantage that Mercedes enjoyed in '20.

Now with the new rules, they're struggling like never before, and its seems to be amplified by the lack of their PU advantage. For example, if you swap current PUs for Mercedes, Ferrari and RedBull with their respective '14 PUs, this same Mercedes car, porpoising or not, will run circles around RedBull and Ferrari.

Mercedes might fix their problems in the next 2 races and might be at the sharp end of the grid in no time, and I'll have to eat up my words, but I think it'll take them longer.
Yeah they weren't good in chassis, right.
In 2015 Ferrari was pretty fast, what did Merc do? Built the best chassis for 2016.
On 2018 Ferrari was again very fast, what did they do? Built the best chassis in 2019.
In 2020 they gave more than 1 sec in qualy to everyone. Maybe because the chassis was bad, right?

What's this nonsense, mate?
IMo before this year Mercedes have had the first or second best chassis since 2014. And in the first half of 2013 they had the best one lap car. It was undoubtedly the best chassis in 2019 and 2020, and it ended 2021 as the best chassis once again, without having any major development, but that is because the 21' car was largely based on the 20', which was one of the best cars in F1 history. It will be very interesting to see how they see out this year. Very few people in the know don't believe that they will eventually be up there. The only question is how long will it take. It might be too late to challenge for either championship though.

mclaren_mircea
mclaren_mircea
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Joined: 10 Jan 2013, 13:16

Re: 2022 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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Mercedes has to start to realise that guilt culture is a need at some degree. I dont say that they have to destabilise the team like the Ferrari years with Mattiaci, Arivabene, Binotto, but behind the scene some heads have to roll if they cand understand and find the sweet pot of the car by Imola. It is not acceptable to lose so much advantage on the engine side from one year to another. And Daimler has to something. Maybe Brixworth need some upgrades on human resources from Germany or from what ever Daimler factory from over the world. Like Ferrari always do promoting engineers from road or endurance engine divisions to F1. It cant be the wing if 5 of the last 6 in the speed trap are Mercedes cars.. Or do like Materchitz has done: blank checks to top engineers from Red Bull on the aero side or to Ferrari men from the engine department.

lh13
lh13
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Joined: 29 Sep 2019, 15:32

Re: 2022 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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Jozsusz wrote:
lh13 wrote:
26 Mar 2022, 23:02
Generally speaking about Mercedes chassis troubles, I'm of the opinion that Mercedes have never been the top chassis builders. '14 to '16, there was no competition so they had it all easy. I've also read that they used to 'shelve' aero upgrades because they weren't even needed. '17 and '18, Ferrari came up with better chassis, and Mercedes ran with their 'downforce at all cost' philosophy, and their PU supported them. In the end, Ferrari shot themselves in the foot and Mercedes walked away with the titles.

'21 was the first real test for them, as they had to work around the rule change (I won't go into the 'fairness' of the rule change), and they came up short, with RedBull clearly coming up with the better car and were able to close the huge advantage that Mercedes enjoyed in '20.

Now with the new rules, they're struggling like never before, and its seems to be amplified by the lack of their PU advantage. For example, if you swap current PUs for Mercedes, Ferrari and RedBull with their respective '14 PUs, this same Mercedes car, porpoising or not, will run circles around RedBull and Ferrari.

Mercedes might fix their problems in the next 2 races and might be at the sharp end of the grid in no time, and I'll have to eat up my words, but I think it'll take them longer.
Yeah they weren't good in chassis, right.
In 2015 Ferrari was pretty fast, what did Merc do? Built the best chassis for 2016.
On 2018 Ferrari was again very fast, what did they do? Built the best chassis in 2019.
In 2020 they gave more than 1 sec in qualy to everyone. Maybe because the chassis was bad, right?

What's this nonsense, mate?
Sarcasm adds nothing to the discussion, if you don't have anything to add, then keeping quiet suits everyone. Other people are responding with their opinion which I value, no this nonsense.

lh13
lh13
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Joined: 29 Sep 2019, 15:32

Re: 2022 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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What I'm saying is, Mercedes chassis department has been 'saved' by their engine department often in the recent past. Mercedes always had good chassis, that much is clear, but never 'great' chassis, that is all I'm saying. They've produced cars with 'downforce at all cost' more often than not, stick whatever we can to make the aero work, and it was all possible due to their PU advantage. In short, they've been building their chassis around the capabilities of their PU, with 'dirty' downforce, hence my opinion that they've never built great chassis.

This year, Toto has admitted that they're running a lot of drag. This is not just the drag from the wings. In Saudi Arabia, they're running perhaps the shallowest wing and still nowhere on the straights, so the entire car is draggy.

Are they so incompetent that they didn't know how much drag they were running in the wind tunnel? No, I believe they knew exactly how much drag they were running, and it was a conscious decision as they were confident that their PU will get them through, once again, but now they're caught off guard because of their PU deficit, which I believe is a thing, while many others are not believing.

Popoising actually might be 'saving their face' at the moment, as they look to have problems that expand beyong the scope of popoising. Only time will tell.

Again, this is all my opinion, hence my post in the 'non-technical' thread. Please don't ask for 'data', I don't know where to get it.

silver
silver
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Joined: 23 Feb 2021, 06:50

Re: 2022 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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lh13 wrote:
27 Mar 2022, 08:12
What I'm saying is, Mercedes chassis department has been 'saved' by their engine department often in the recent past. Mercedes always had good chassis, that much is clear, but never 'great' chassis, that is all I'm saying. They've produced cars with 'downforce at all cost' more often than not, stick whatever we can to make the aero work, and it was all possible due to their PU advantage. In short, they've been building their chassis around the capabilities of their PU, with 'dirty' downforce, hence my opinion that they've never built great chassis.

This year, Toto has admitted that they're running a lot of drag. This is not just the drag from the wings. In Saudi Arabia, they're running perhaps the shallowest wing and still nowhere on the straights, so the entire car is draggy.

Are they so incompetent that they didn't know how much drag they were running in the wind tunnel? No, I believe they knew exactly how much drag they were running, and it was a conscious decision as they were confident that their PU will get them through, once again, but now they're caught off guard because of their PU deficit, which I believe is a thing, while many others are not believing.

Popoising actually might be 'saving their face' at the moment, as they look to have problems that expand beyong the scope of popoising. Only time will tell.

Again, this is all my opinion, hence my post in the 'non-technical' thread. Please don't ask for 'data', I don't know where to get it.
Those are indeed excellent points. I made similar observation a while ago on this thread. Having ended 2016 with one of the dominant cars, Mercedes came short in 2017 when Ferrari matched them. They famously called the W08 as a diva for it's unpredictable behavior and constricted operating window, but had enough grunt to pull through.

With Honda having caught up on power with Red Bull as a chassis, it started becoming difficult for Mercedes to mask the chassis disadvantages as was evident in 2021. Let's be clear, we are not talking about a mid-field or a back marker here. Despite the challenges, Mercedes chassis still figures in the top 3. But they are held to the top most position as a reference and anything less is 'bad job'. Ferrari having slogged for 2 years to fix it's engine shortfall and having produced a 2017 like chassis, is now a strong opponent.

Looking at Mercedes customer teams and their straight line performance deficit and Mercedes' own lack of straight line speed in Jeddah, despite such a deep cut rear wing, it's apparent Mercedes engine has lost it's grunt and quite far behind. Last year, they struggled with engine reliability and to be competitive, they had to resort to using high performance modes for longer and were willing to sacrifice engines.

Purpoising is a bad excuse for lack of performance. It's an issue that most cars have on the grid which I don't think is bothering Mercedes alone. All teams have done the compromise required and so are Mercedes. Yet, they are the ones that are so far behind. I doubt solving Porpoising problems would cure their issues and to their misfortune, their engine clearly appears to be quite far behind to help them in current struggles.

The ICE is all frozen and unless they have a big performance margin inside it and are waiting for some sort of reliability upgrades to unlock it, it's going to be difficult 4 years. Whatever hybrid components they can improve till September, can only bring marginal gains. With chassis rules being so stringent, there are no loop holes that can help any team to balance the chassis performance when there is lack of engine power.

When James Allison said, a team or two would get it wrong, little did we know one of them would be Mercedes.

Tvetovnato
Tvetovnato
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Re: 2022 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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mclaren_mircea wrote:
27 Mar 2022, 07:34
Mercedes has to start to realise that guilt culture is a need at some degree. I dont say that they have to destabilise the team like the Ferrari years with Mattiaci, Arivabene, Binotto, but behind the scene some heads have to roll if they cand understand and find the sweet pot of the car by Imola. It is not acceptable to lose so much advantage on the engine side from one year to another. And Daimler has to something. Maybe Brixworth need some upgrades on human resources from Germany or from what ever Daimler factory from over the world. Like Ferrari always do promoting engineers from road or endurance engine divisions to F1. It cant be the wing if 5 of the last 6 in the speed trap are Mercedes cars.. Or do like Materchitz has done: blank checks to top engineers from Red Bull on the aero side or to Ferrari men from the engine department.
8 years of success, and heads needs to roll after 3-4 races of not being at the top? Guilt culture is a great way to ruin things completely. This team has pulled through difficulties before and came back to the top, and there is no reason to start stressing just yet. They are working on it, and sometimes it just takes time.

silver
silver
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Joined: 23 Feb 2021, 06:50

Re: 2022 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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Tvetovnato wrote:
27 Mar 2022, 09:54
mclaren_mircea wrote:
27 Mar 2022, 07:34
Mercedes has to start to realise that guilt culture is a need at some degree. I dont say that they have to destabilise the team like the Ferrari years with Mattiaci, Arivabene, Binotto, but behind the scene some heads have to roll if they cand understand and find the sweet pot of the car by Imola. It is not acceptable to lose so much advantage on the engine side from one year to another. And Daimler has to something. Maybe Brixworth need some upgrades on human resources from Germany or from what ever Daimler factory from over the world. Like Ferrari always do promoting engineers from road or endurance engine divisions to F1. It cant be the wing if 5 of the last 6 in the speed trap are Mercedes cars.. Or do like Materchitz has done: blank checks to top engineers from Red Bull on the aero side or to Ferrari men from the engine department.
8 years of success, and heads needs to roll after 3-4 races of not being at the top? Guilt culture is a great way to ruin things completely. This team has pulled through difficulties before and came back to the top, and there is no reason to start stressing just yet. They are working on it, and sometimes it just takes time.
The times have changed from the past to now. The biggest challenge is the budget constraint and the engine freeze. I am not of the opinion that heads should roll, but the recovery is going to be a challenge unlike in the past. Ferrari is yet to prove they can sustain a full season of championship challenge in terms of development race, but conceding so much ground to Red Bull would be unforgiving.

NL_Fer
NL_Fer
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Re: 2022 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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I noticed Hamilton had no sparks under his car yesterday. Did they setup so much ride height, or did he clip the skid plates on a curb?

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McG
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Joined: 16 Feb 2011, 17:45

Re: 2022 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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lh13 wrote:
27 Mar 2022, 08:12
What I'm saying is, Mercedes chassis department has been 'saved' by their engine department often in the recent past. Mercedes always had good chassis, that much is clear, but never 'great' chassis, that is all I'm saying. They've produced cars with 'downforce at all cost' more often than not, stick whatever we can to make the aero work, and it was all possible due to their PU advantage. In short, they've been building their chassis around the capabilities of their PU, with 'dirty' downforce, hence my opinion that they've never built great chassis.

This year, Toto has admitted that they're running a lot of drag. This is not just the drag from the wings. In Saudi Arabia, they're running perhaps the shallowest wing and still nowhere on the straights, so the entire car is draggy.

Are they so incompetent that they didn't know how much drag they were running in the wind tunnel? No, I believe they knew exactly how much drag they were running, and it was a conscious decision as they were confident that their PU will get them through, once again, but now they're caught off guard because of their PU deficit, which I believe is a thing, while many others are not believing.

Popoising actually might be 'saving their face' at the moment, as they look to have problems that expand beyong the scope of popoising. Only time will tell.

Again, this is all my opinion, hence my post in the 'non-technical' thread. Please don't ask for 'data', I don't know where to get it.
In an interview on Beyond The Grid one of the Mercedes engineers or designers, or was it the one with 3 of them, said that in the early hybrid years everyone thought they were gaining most of their dominance from the engine, when in fact it was the chassis. And that they kept this illusion up for some time. I invite you to go and listen to the hours of interviews before going on your own made up hunch. Mercedes never having a great chassis is only arguable in the sense that Red Bull have maybe been better, which wouldn't be surprising. But Red Bull a lot of the time were pushed to break the rules by implementing things like flexible rear wings. Again, your hunch doesn't really work.
Finally, everyone knows that Red Bull is a joke and Max Verstappen is overrated.