2022 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

[chrisc90]

What I'm saying is, Mercedes chassis department has been 'saved' by their engine department often in the recent past. Mercedes always had good chassis, that much is clear, but never 'great' chassis, that is all I'm saying. They've produced cars with 'downforce at all cost' more often than not, stick whatever we can to make the aero work, and it was all possible due to their PU advantage. In short, they've been building their chassis around the capabilities of their PU, with 'dirty' downforce, hence my opinion that they've never built great chassis.

This year, Toto has admitted that they're running a lot of drag. This is not just the drag from the wings. In Saudi Arabia, they're running perhaps the shallowest wing and still nowhere on the straights, so the entire car is draggy.

Are they so incompetent that they didn't know how much drag they were running in the wind tunnel? No, I believe they knew exactly how much drag they were running, and it was a conscious decision as they were confident that their PU will get them through, once again, but now they're caught off guard because of their PU deficit, which I believe is a thing, while many others are not believing.

Popoising actually might be 'saving their face' at the moment, as they look to have problems that expand beyong the scope of popoising. Only time will tell.

Again, this is all my opinion, hence my post in the 'non-technical' thread. Please don't ask for 'data', I don't know where to get it.

In an interview on Beyond The Grid one of the Mercedes engineers or designers, or was it the one with 3 of them, said that in the early hybrid years everyone thought they were gaining most of their dominance from the engine, when in fact it was the chassis. And that they kept this illusion up for some time. I invite you to go and listen to the hours of interviews before going on your own made up hunch. Mercedes never having a great chassis is only arguable in the sense that Red Bull have maybe been better, which wouldn't be surprising. But Red Bull a lot of the time were pushed to break the rules by implementing things like flexible rear wings. Again, your hunch doesn't really work.

Do none of the other teams on the grid have a car with a non flexing rear wing? Thats a bold statement to say its Redbull who are the only ones to break the rules. (which is how it reads)

[basti313]

What I'm saying is, Mercedes chassis department has been 'saved' by their engine department often in the recent past. Mercedes always had good chassis, that much is clear, but never 'great' chassis, that is all I'm saying. They've produced cars with 'downforce at all cost' more often than not, stick whatever we can to make the aero work, and it was all possible due to their PU advantage. In short, they've been building their chassis around the capabilities of their PU, with 'dirty' downforce, hence my opinion that they've never built great chassis.

This year, Toto has admitted that they're running a lot of drag. This is not just the drag from the wings. In Saudi Arabia, they're running perhaps the shallowest wing and still nowhere on the straights, so the entire car is draggy.

Are they so incompetent that they didn't know how much drag they were running in the wind tunnel? No, I believe they knew exactly how much drag they were running, and it was a conscious decision as they were confident that their PU will get them through, once again, but now they're caught off guard because of their PU deficit, which I believe is a thing, while many others are not believing.

Popoising actually might be 'saving their face' at the moment, as they look to have problems that expand beyong the scope of popoising. Only time will tell.

Again, this is all my opinion, hence my post in the 'non-technical' thread. Please don't ask for 'data', I don't know where to get it.

In an interview on Beyond The Grid one of the Mercedes engineers or designers, or was it the one with 3 of them, said that in the early hybrid years everyone thought they were gaining most of their dominance from the engine, when in fact it was the chassis. And that they kept this illusion up for some time. I invite you to go and listen to the hours of interviews before going on your own made up hunch. Mercedes never having a great chassis is only arguable in the sense that Red Bull have maybe been better, which wouldn't be surprising. But Red Bull a lot of the time were pushed to break the rules by implementing things like flexible rear wings. Again, your hunch doesn't really work.

A little bit of nonsense all ends, isn't it?
In 2014 they clearly played with the opponents with the massive PU advantage. Even Williams was good in this year.
Then they got the packing of the cooling to a level where no non-works team and no other normal turbo engine could go. It was always then the combination of the top engine with the packing levels that made the chassis superb.

Merc got first robbed by Ferrari by the engine advantage with the fuel tricks, then Honda came in with robbing the split turbo advantage gifted to them by FIA that lifted the token system against Merc and now all the others copied the same split turbo.

Nonsense with flex wings. Everyone had to flex the wings, Merc maybe most on the front wing. They also exploited oil burning always to the maximum. Everyone goes to the allowed maximum.

[torpor]

You guys forget that Mercedes came up with several technical innovations like FRIC and DAS that where exceeding other teams’ imagination and where banned thereafter. You also have to take in account that Brackley team invented the double diffusor.

[mclaren_mircea]

Mercedes has to start to realise that guilt culture is a need at some degree. I dont say that they have to destabilise the team like the Ferrari years with Mattiaci, Arivabene, Binotto, but behind the scene some heads have to roll if they cand understand and find the sweet pot of the car by Imola. It is not acceptable to lose so much advantage on the engine side from one year to another. And Daimler has to something. Maybe Brixworth need some upgrades on human resources from Germany or from what ever Daimler factory from over the world. Like Ferrari always do promoting engineers from road or endurance engine divisions to F1. It cant be the wing if 5 of the last 6 in the speed trap are Mercedes cars.. Or do like Materchitz has done: blank checks to top engineers from Red Bull on the aero side or to Ferrari men from the engine department.

8 years of success, and heads needs to roll after 3-4 races of not being at the top? Guilt culture is a great way to ruin things completely. This team has pulled through difficulties before and came back to the top, and there is no reason to start stressing just yet. They are working on it, and sometimes it just takes time.

Yes budget cap. but it is not in the budget cap the possibility to build a new wind tunnel and a new simulator with the latest generation that exists in 2022. Like Ferrari did in the last 2 years and the relation wind tunnel-simulator-track is getting better end better. Everything to be new on the infrastructure. And more men in Birxworth. If the spend those money they cand be on top. Otherwise not. I cant understant to this day and maybe you can try explain me how was posible that a Red Bull junior driver gets in a Mercedes powered car. It is Williams choice to have what driver they want and they should not be forced to take De Vries but should be a red line: NO FERRARI OR RED BULL DRIVERS in a Mercedes powered car. Why wasnt Ocon or Russel temporary at Alpha Tauri or Sauber or Haas? Marko said clearly that for Ocon or Russel (I dont remember exactly if it was about Ocon or Russel) to drive an Alpha Tauri they have to CUT OFF all the relationship with Mercedes. For me this a sign of declining power. All they want now is it to spare money, while Materschitz offer what ever Horner and Marko wants. It also left me appaled how was posible that Red Bull who developred the car even later than Mercedes now has a car at the level of Ferrari, whose number 1 position is justified by working much longe ron the 2022 car than Merc/Bull. If Ola Kallenius does not start to make clean in the house with an iron fist I cant see a happy ending neither for the 2023 car.

[torpor]

I’m not sure if we’re conspiracy theorists. But to me Albon in the Williams looks like a Red Bull Power Trains trojan horse spying Mercedes engine data. Same applies to Hülkenberg, who is Red Bull TV network expert and Aston Martin reserve and simulator driver at the same time.

[De Jokke]

Could merc have used paddy lowe now? As I'm sure he knows a bit or two about porpoising. He's an ancient like Newey.

[holeindalip]

What I'm saying is, Mercedes chassis department has been 'saved' by their engine department often in the recent past. Mercedes always had good chassis, that much is clear, but never 'great' chassis, that is all I'm saying. They've produced cars with 'downforce at all cost' more often than not, stick whatever we can to make the aero work, and it was all possible due to their PU advantage. In short, they've been building their chassis around the capabilities of their PU, with 'dirty' downforce, hence my opinion that they've never built great chassis.

This year, Toto has admitted that they're running a lot of drag. This is not just the drag from the wings. In Saudi Arabia, they're running perhaps the shallowest wing and still nowhere on the straights, so the entire car is draggy.

Are they so incompetent that they didn't know how much drag they were running in the wind tunnel? No, I believe they knew exactly how much drag they were running, and it was a conscious decision as they were confident that their PU will get them through, once again, but now they're caught off guard because of their PU deficit, which I believe is a thing, while many others are not believing.

Popoising actually might be 'saving their face' at the moment, as they look to have problems that expand beyong the scope of popoising. Only time will tell.

Again, this is all my opinion, hence my post in the 'non-technical' thread. Please don't ask for 'data', I don't know where to get it.

Those are indeed excellent points. I made similar observation a while ago on this thread. Having ended 2016 with one of the dominant cars, Mercedes came short in 2017 when Ferrari matched them. They famously called the W08 as a diva for it's unpredictable behavior and constricted operating window, but had enough grunt to pull through.

With Honda having caught up on power with Red Bull as a chassis, it started becoming difficult for Mercedes to mask the chassis disadvantages as was evident in 2021. Let's be clear, we are not talking about a mid-field or a back marker here. Despite the challenges, Mercedes chassis still figures in the top 3. But they are held to the top most position as a reference and anything less is 'bad job'. Ferrari having slogged for 2 years to fix it's engine shortfall and having produced a 2017 like chassis, is now a strong opponent.

Looking at Mercedes customer teams and their straight line performance deficit and Mercedes' own lack of straight line speed in Jeddah, despite such a deep cut rear wing, it's apparent Mercedes engine has lost it's grunt and quite far behind. Last year, they struggled with engine reliability and to be competitive, they had to resort to using high performance modes for longer and were willing to sacrifice engines.

Purpoising is a bad excuse for lack of performance. It's an issue that most cars have on the grid which I don't think is bothering Mercedes alone. All teams have done the compromise required and so are Mercedes. Yet, they are the ones that are so far behind. I doubt solving Porpoising problems would cure their issues and to their misfortune, their engine clearly appears to be quite far behind to help them in current struggles.

The ICE is all frozen and unless they have a big performance margin inside it and are waiting for some sort of reliability upgrades to unlock it, it's going to be difficult 4 years. Whatever hybrid components they can improve till September, can only bring marginal gains. With chassis rules being so stringent, there are no loop holes that can help any team to balance the chassis performance when there is lack of engine power.

When James Allison said, a team or two would get it wrong, little did we know one of them would be Mercedes.

Ice is locked but not all of the power unit, they may not have all of the hybrid component updates to match the e-10 fuel yet. Power unit may just be turned down for merc and all merc teams until the chassis issues are sorted….

[Tvetovnato]

Guys, we have brand new cars, and only two qualifying sessions and one race has so far passed, out of 23 races. Let's wait with the total panic to around 5-6 races when teams start bringing the planned upgrades and see where we stand by then. We have no idea what design concept has the biggest development potential. It could be Merc, it could be Ferrari, it could be RB. No one knows by now, simply because no one fully understands these new cars at this point.

Breathe...

[Lca1443]

I’m not sure if we’re conspiracy theorists. But to me Albon in the Williams looks like a Red Bull Power Trains trojan horse spying Mercedes engine data. Same applies to Hülkenberg, who is Red Bull TV network expert and Aston Martin reserve and simulator driver at the same time.

You're joking right? Drivers are not going to get any kind of information that would be in any way useful to another engine supplier. With GPS/sound analysis, everyone has power curve, gearing, and deployment of the other teams.

[Big Tea]

I’m not sure if we’re conspiracy theorists. But to me Albon in the Williams looks like a Red Bull Power Trains trojan horse spying Mercedes engine data. Same applies to Hülkenberg, who is Red Bull TV network expert and Aston Martin reserve and simulator driver at the same time.

There are actual engineers and designers gone to Red Bull form Merc, probably those that were involved in design and test of the engine in those cars now. I doubt there is much either driver can tell Red Bull that they do not already know

[Scorpaguy]

Ham finished 3rd in race one. Way ahead of RB in constructors. While they cannot sideskirt their way out of the floor stall, Merc will tweak out an air curtain solution in a few races. I still predict lots for the new pods (or lack there of).

[PlatinumZealot]

Could merc have used paddy lowe now? As I'm sure he knows a bit or two about porpoising. He's an ancient like Newey.

He's an electrical and controls engineer mostly.

[torpor]

I think there’s a big deference between designing an engine and driving an engine. Remember how Helmut Marko was glad about pulling Perez because he has long experience with Mercedes engines. I think drivability was the buzzword.

[Hoffman900]

Could merc have used paddy lowe now? As I'm sure he knows a bit or two about porpoising. He's an ancient like Newey.

He's an electrical and controls engineer mostly.

This and he was a 22yo in school when ground effect tunnels disappeared.

Adrian Newey was only 25 and still in Indy Car at the time.

[De Jokke]

yet Newey designed the 94 williams car which had ground effect if I'm not mistaken?