Mercedes W13

[torpor]

I cant see how all the customer teams have got their designs so wrong.

+ Mercedes, obviously. Which is more probable - Mercedes HPP designing a weaker engine, or 4 F1 teams going completely wrong with their designs?

Well McLaren have obvious issues beyond the PU, Williams’s are perpetually at the back of the grid and where were aston last season? Personally I suspect the MB PU is running detuned due to a reliability issue which is fixable under the current engine freeze and is why Toto isn’t concerned. If I’m wrong and the PU really is down on power compared to the others then MB are in trouble for the next few years.

Till the end of 2025 to be exact.

[Andi76]

I cant see how all the customer teams have got their designs so wrong.

+ Mercedes, obviously. Which is more probable - Mercedes HPP designing a weaker engine, or 4 F1 teams going completely wrong with their designs?

To be honest - the first one clearly. It happened quite often in F1 history, while 4 Teams being completely wrong with their design in that way - never.

[wunderkind]

[cut off-topic]

The Mercedes PU definitely looks under par. Is it outright power, harvesting, deployment, or limited by cooling? Who knows…..

I doubt the car is draggy with those side-pods. Maybe the side impact protection structure-cum-down wash wing is not doing what it is supposed to. Most of the problems are most probably due to trade offs made to combat the porpoising problem (super stiff heave spring and rear suspension, higher ride height, more wing to compensate). The car may have potential to be unlocked, but I don’t see half a second to be found in the W13 in its current form.

It’s going to be a painful season ahead for Mercedes.

[djones]

We know this year it’s all about getting the car lower to the ground. Right now Mercedes are really bad at that due to the bouncing problem.

If after 6 races they have not fixed it then yeah ok it’s probably fair to say they got it wrong this year. Before then though all we can really say is they have a fault to fix.

[morefirejules08]

+ Mercedes, obviously. Which is more probable - Mercedes HPP designing a weaker engine, or 4 F1 teams going completely wrong with their designs?

Well McLaren have obvious issues beyond the PU, Williams’s are perpetually at the back of the grid and where were aston last season? Personally I suspect the MB PU is running detuned due to a reliability issue which is fixable under the current engine freeze and is why Toto isn’t concerned. If I’m wrong and the PU really is down on power compared to the others then MB are in trouble for the next few years.

Till the end of 2025 to be exact.

Couldn’t remember when exactly, I still think MB have a reliability concern rather than outright power deficit.

[gluon]

What if a very slight rake angle helps with porpoising?

Facts we know:

1. Mercedes and Aston Martin had a minimal rake philosophy before
2. RBR and Ferrari had a high rake philosophy before
3. Mercedes and Aston Martin are suffering from severe porpoising
4. RBR and Ferrari are suffering from minimal to no porpoising
5. We've seen pictures of at least RBR running a slight but noticeable rake in 2022

Could this be their trick, but somehow impossible for Mercedes and Aston Martin to replicate due to the whole concept of their cars from the past?

[PlatinumZealot]

I cant see how all the customer teams have got their designs so wrong.

+ Mercedes, obviously. Which is more probable - Mercedes HPP designing a weaker engine, or 4 F1 teams going completely wrong with their designs?

To be honest - the first one clearly. It happened quite often in F1 history, while 4 Teams being completely wrong with their design in that way - never.

It is very possible. For instance the PU design influences the chassis and vice-versa, if McLaren, Williams and Aston were constantly reminded of how compact the engine is and that they should take advantage of that, it might just have influenced them to focus on small side pods! So McLaren and Williams went that route. Aston is a clearly different matter, but they have other issues. If James Allison is to be believed, the Mercedes engine is still near the top of the pack.

[wesley123]

What if a very slight rake angle helps with porpoising?

No. While initially the gap between floor and road will be higher, this will compress and lead to a similar situation.
What also is an issue is the design of these floors and the lack of aerodynamic aids. The diffuser will already be designed to it's maximum spec, thus any added angle will just lead to stall.

To explain it simply(because I don't know the physics behind it either), due to the throat there is a significant increase in airflow(compared to previously), this isn't a problem in its own right, but as the car drops due to aerodynamic load, the airflow has to flow through an increasingly smaller gap, which will accelerate the airflow, and this accelerated airflow becomes too fast to stay attached.

This essentially makes the solution itself very, very simple; increase the gap through which the air can flow. What makes it complex, however, is that this solution comes with some big deficits. Mainly a loss in downforce.

[Stu]

Well McLaren have obvious issues beyond the PU, Williams’s are perpetually at the back of the grid and where were aston last season? Personally I suspect the MB PU is running detuned due to a reliability issue which is fixable under the current engine freeze and is why Toto isn’t concerned. If I’m wrong and the PU really is down on power compared to the others then MB are in trouble for the next few years.

Till the end of 2025 to be exact.

Couldn’t remember when exactly, I still think MB have a reliability concern rather than outright power deficit.

Thing is, if the reliability is caused by a cooling deficit, the issue can be fixed without changing the ICE. If they want to fix reliability issues with an ICE modification the FIA have to be notified (and so will other engine builders).
Unless GR totally outperformed the car yesterday, Mercedes HPP will really struggle to get anything past the other engine builders.

Last years ‘Brazil’ spec engine was not a reliability mod, but apparently featured 600g worth of gasket changes that were outside of the ‘fixed’ part of the ICE spec.

[Hoffman900]

yet Newey designed the 94 williams car which had ground effect if I'm not mistaken?

All ‘flat floor’ cars since tunnels were banned have utilised ground effect. If Newey has used any of his experience of GE tunnels it will be from his time in Indycar.

This and the tools were really rudimentary then and solutions not the same.

If RB still has a partnership with Multimatic, I believe that a bigger difference due to all their WEC / IMSA, experience, than anything Newey learned when he was 23-24yo.

F1 cars haven’t used venturi tunnels since 1984. Been flat floor since.

[morefirejules08]

Till the end of 2025 to be exact.

Couldn’t remember when exactly, I still think MB have a reliability concern rather than outright power deficit.

Thing is, if the reliability is caused by a cooling deficit, the issue can be fixed without changing the ICE. If they want to fix reliability issues with an ICE modification the FIA have to be notified (and so will other engine builders).
Unless GR totally outperformed the car yesterday, Mercedes HPP will really struggle to get anything past the other engine builders.

Last years ‘Brazil’ spec engine was not a reliability mod, but apparently featured 600g worth of gasket changes that were outside of the ‘fixed’ part of the ICE spec.

I assume MB would have to prove the performance was already there before applying any reliability fix which shouldn’t be difficult.

[Steven]

Some posts were deleted, some posts were moved to the team thread.
Please, the car topic is about THE CAR, not about Paddy Lowe and not about how many teams got it wrong

[ing.]

yet Newey designed the 94 williams car which had ground effect if I'm not mistaken?

All ‘flat floor’ cars since tunnels were banned have utilised ground effect. If Newey has used any of his experience of GE tunnels it will be from his time in Indycar.

This and the tools were really rudimentary then and solutions not the same.

If RB still has a partnership with Multimatic, I believe that a bigger difference due to all their WEC / IMSA, experience, than anything Newey learned when he was 23-24yo.

F1 cars haven’t used venturi tunnels since 1984. Been flat floor since.

Last year of venturi tunnels was 1982.

I also think Multimatic dampers could be an RBR advantage—though other teams are also using them but not sure who.

The Multimatic dampers use a spool valve design and I expect they could have multiple spools—like their position-sensitive off-road dampers—with a spool tuned to control porpoising.

[Hoffman900]

All ‘flat floor’ cars since tunnels were banned have utilised ground effect. If Newey has used any of his experience of GE tunnels it will be from his time in Indycar.

This and the tools were really rudimentary then and solutions not the same.

If RB still has a partnership with Multimatic, I believe that a bigger difference due to all their WEC / IMSA, experience, than anything Newey learned when he was 23-24yo.

F1 cars haven’t used venturi tunnels since 1984. Been flat floor since.

Last year of venturi tunnels was 1982.

I also think Multimatic dampers could be an RBR advantage—though other teams are also using them but not sure who.

The Multimatic dampers use a spool valve design and I expect they could have multiple spools—like their position-sensitive off-road dampers—with a spool tuned to control porpoising.

Ah, I was thinking ‘84. So Paddy was 20 and Newey was 23.


I meant as a technical partner and knowing out to control porpoising from the chassis side. Multimatic’s background is CART / Indy Car, WEC / IMSA, so they have a lot of experience and have seen this before.

Not sure who Merc’s chassis technical partner is.

[JordanFiveOh]

Doesn’t Mercedes use Penske dampers? Not sure on a technical partner outside of that.