Mercedes W13

[214270]

I am quite confused on what is causing it then...
On a (maybe not so) different note, there was a discrepancy between Hamilton, which claimed that his troubles were caused by a bad setup, and Toto, which stated that Ham and Russ cars were not that different in setup.
It is of course impossible to know it from the outside, but they did not have any apparent differences in the aero package; is it possible that Merc is too sensitive and difficult to set up? Could minor differences in suspensions/aerodynamic setup cause big differences in performance?

On a podcast it was mentioned the difference between the two cars was the tyre pressures

[Mchamilton]

I am quite confused on what is causing it then...
On a (maybe not so) different note, there was a discrepancy between Hamilton, which claimed that his troubles were caused by a bad setup, and Toto, which stated that Ham and Russ cars were not that different in setup.
It is of course impossible to know it from the outside, but they did not have any apparent differences in the aero package; is it possible that Merc is too sensitive and difficult to set up? Could minor differences in suspensions/aerodynamic setup cause big differences in performance?

On a podcast it was mentioned the difference between the two cars was the tyre pressures

Yeah 'the race' on youtube mentioned it was a difference in rear tyre pressures

[AR3-GP]

It's not aero that sets it off but it only occurs at high aero speed. I'm scratching my head.

So it's unbalanced wheels? . Are we sure Scarbs translated that properly?

[mantikos]

It's not aero that sets it off but it only occurs at high aero speed. I'm scratching my head.

So it's unbalanced wheels? . Are we sure Scarbs translated that properly?

The key is that its not aero that sets it off, but it could still be the aero that sustains it after it starts.

It could be that the suspension is reacting to the peak load under downforce in an undesirable way to the point it squats or becomes unstable thus stalling the aero, which then sustains the proposing. So triggered by the suspension but sustained by the aero thereafter. It sounds plausible given GR also talked about suspension, chassis, and floor stiffness as to what causes and sustains the proposing in his post Saudi interview.

[AR3-GP]

It's not aero that sets it off but it only occurs at high aero speed. I'm scratching my head.

So it's unbalanced wheels? . Are we sure Scarbs translated that properly?

The key is that its not aero that sets it off, but it could still be the aero that sustains it after it starts.

It could be that the suspension is reacting to the peak load under downforce in an undesirable way to the point it squats or becomes unstable thus stalling the aero, which then sustains the proposing. So triggered by the suspension but sustained by the aero thereafter. It sounds plausible given GR also talked about suspension, chassis, and floor stiffness as to what causes and sustains the proposing in his post Saudi interview.

You might be on to something. It could be something in the rear suspension because Aston Martin are claiming porpoising cost then 7-8 tenths and they share the rear suspension with Merc

[izzy]

It's not aero that sets it off but it only occurs at high aero speed. I'm scratching my head.

So it's unbalanced wheels? . Are we sure Scarbs translated that properly?

The key is that its not aero that sets it off, but it could still be the aero that sustains it after it starts.

It could be that the suspension is reacting to the peak load under downforce in an undesirable way to the point it squats or becomes unstable thus stalling the aero, which then sustains the proposing. So triggered by the suspension but sustained by the aero thereafter. It sounds plausible given GR also talked about suspension, chassis, and floor stiffness as to what causes and sustains the proposing in his post Saudi interview.

It's not one or the other it's the aero load compressing the suspension until the flow is impeded. So the suspension lets the car drop too low for the design of the floor, at high speed. Or the floor doesn't flow properly at maximum compression on the suspension, same thing really. It's the two together.

And then also there's a frequency effect with how the timing of the cycle coincides with the natural frequency of the car on its suspension.

I think they can fix it, now they've got some data.

[vorticism]

What else can it be?

Speaking of the center floor... If the plank is sensitive to being sucked to the ground approaching zero ride height, and if differential flow laterally is an issue in that region (fluctations in L and R tunnel pressure defining this flow, perhaps exaggerated during yaw), maybe rake helps. Running the plank parallel to the ground would not allow the bib spring to define contact with the ground, but rake would.

[Andi76]

It's not aero that sets it off but it only occurs at high aero speed. I'm scratching my head.

So it's unbalanced wheels? . Are we sure Scarbs translated that properly?

The key is that its not aero that sets it off, but it could still be the aero that sustains it after it starts.

It could be that the suspension is reacting to the peak load under downforce in an undesirable way to the point it squats or becomes unstable thus stalling the aero, which then sustains the proposing. So triggered by the suspension but sustained by the aero thereafter. It sounds plausible given GR also talked about suspension, chassis, and floor stiffness as to what causes and sustains the proposing in his post Saudi interview.

Great explaination and sounds logical. But i am still asking myself - is it right to say that its not the aero? As we know, a lot of things have an influence on the aerodynamics of a car. So even if something else sets it off - and the aero is sustaining it - is not the aero still the problem because its to sensitive maybe? To me it seems a little bit like the chicken and egg-question: which came first, the chicken or the egg?

[_cerber1]

[mantikos]

It's not aero that sets it off but it only occurs at high aero speed. I'm scratching my head.

So it's unbalanced wheels? . Are we sure Scarbs translated that properly?

The key is that its not aero that sets it off, but it could still be the aero that sustains it after it starts.

It could be that the suspension is reacting to the peak load under downforce in an undesirable way to the point it squats or becomes unstable thus stalling the aero, which then sustains the proposing. So triggered by the suspension but sustained by the aero thereafter. It sounds plausible given GR also talked about suspension, chassis, and floor stiffness as to what causes and sustains the proposing in his post Saudi interview.

Great explaination and sounds logical. But i am still asking myself - is it right to say that its not the aero? As we know, a lot of things have an influence on the aerodynamics of a car. So even if something else sets it off - and the aero is sustaining it - is not the aero still the problem because its to sensitive maybe? To me it seems a little bit like the chicken and egg-question: which came first, the chicken or the egg?

I agree on a certain level, but I think Mercedes themselves are trying to make that distinction - the floor stalling is not what starts it (aero), rather the suspension's non ideal behavior triggers the stall which is what sustains it.

[wogx]

1. IIRC, we have 3 teams with a spring over frontal section of floor (tea tray region). It's RB, Ferrari & Alfa Romeo, right?

2. The rules contain a max. level of damping for that spring. Is that value a significant one? Could it be a remarkable advantage for those 3 teams, generating less losses on straights (while the car is porpoising) and in fast corners? IIRC - Mercedes is quite fast (on par with top teams) in slower corners.

3. Could Merc go back to Barcelona spec, moving electrical components into larger sidepods and incorporating a "floor spring" in their current place?

[Peter Ian Staker]

1. IIRC, we have 3 teams with a spring over frontal section of floor (tea tray region). It's RB, Ferrari & Alfa Romeo, right?

It's RB, Ferrari and Haas. Haven't seen anything on what Alfa is using.

[matteosc]

I am quite confused on what is causing it then...
On a (maybe not so) different note, there was a discrepancy between Hamilton, which claimed that his troubles were caused by a bad setup, and Toto, which stated that Ham and Russ cars were not that different in setup.
It is of course impossible to know it from the outside, but they did not have any apparent differences in the aero package; is it possible that Merc is too sensitive and difficult to set up? Could minor differences in suspensions/aerodynamic setup cause big differences in performance?

On a podcast it was mentioned the difference between the two cars was the tyre pressures

Yeah 'the race' on youtube mentioned it was a difference in rear tyre pressures

Interesting. That brings two questions:
1) Is tire pressure part of the setup that cannot be changed after qualifying?
2) Do team run at minimum pressure like last year or do they use higher pressure? If so, why?

[matteosc]

1. IIRC, we have 3 teams with a spring over frontal section of floor (tea tray region). It's RB, Ferrari & Alfa Romeo, right?

2. The rules contain a max. level of damping for that spring. Is that value a significant one? Could it be a remarkable advantage for those 3 teams, generating less losses on straights (while the car is porpoising) and in fast corners? IIRC - Mercedes is quite fast (on par with top teams) in slower corners.

3. Could Merc go back to Barcelona spec, moving electrical components into larger sidepods and incorporating a "floor spring" in their current place?

I doubt that the spring in the splitter has such a big effect. And I do not think it is worth for Mercedes to go back to Barcelona spec: the car was clearly intended to use the mini sidepods, not being able to make that concept work would put Mercedes back of weeks in development terms. I believe they will keep the mini sidepods and make them work somehow.

[PlatinumZealot]

It's ironic how some of our members slate Reddit members and other forums of the same ilk and question their IQ...

Is it to late to change my mind and pick the red pill?

No. You only get one chance to pick the red pill I heard. The fact that you met Morpheus of all people and turned him down means you are stuck here forever.