Best Driver on the Brakes

[Metar]

I've never seen these figures before, you know... I'd like to see a link to a halfway-reputable source regarding such claims.

[SoliRossi]

I've never seen these figures before, you know... I'd like to see a link to a halfway-reputable source regarding such claims.

i dont have the original link from Mark Hughes article but it was copied here http://www.markwebberforum.com/index.cg ... hread=3465

Here is the relevant bit...

Webber back in the saddle
Mark Hughes

"NAH MATE, straight back on the horse," was Mark Webber's typically relaxed answer to whether it was difficult getting back into a Formula 1 car for two days of solid testing just 12 weeks after breaking his leg. "Don't get me wrong. I was very nervous going into it. I'd absolutely buried myself preparing for it and there's a big concern about just how you'll be able to perform. Yet the test itself absolutely wiped away any question marks in my mind."

What wasn't widely known outside of his retinue of medical advisors was that it wasn't only the broken right leg he was recovering from; he also had a fractured shoulder.

"Yeah, if anything I was more concerned about how my shoulder might stand up to it." Imagine, if you can, what 4g of lateral force might feel like in a shoulder with a fracture that's not fully healed, and you begin to get a feel for
his level of apprehension.

Adrenaline overcomes pain

Taking over testing of the new Red Bull RB5 at Jerez from Sebastian Vettel, Webber almost immediately ran a 40-odd-lap sequence: "I was very pleasantly surprised by that. I had myself down for maybe 20 laps but I still felt brand new, so there was no reason to curtail the run." By the end of the first day he'd run 85 laps - and felt able to do more. It's not as if the team were being easy on him either. "No, I'd told Christian [Horner, team boss] right from the start of this whole thing that I don't want to compromise any of the team's programme. I told him not to pad the programme out, just to treat me as normal. Which they did. I was a bit sore the next morning - my muscles aren't back to full strength yet and it will be a while before I'm able to do four hours on a mountain bike. But as for the driving, no problem. I could do a full grand prix distance. Adrenalin's an amazing thing."

Part of Webber's speed, aside from a fantastic sensitivity to available grip, is the huge pressure he uses on the brake pedal. At high speeds, with an F1 car's full downforce acting upon it, the limitation to how much braking can be achieved in the initial phase is how hard the driver can press the pedal. Webber routinely uses 150-bar, a figure often not even approached by most other drivers in full-on emergencies when they're trying not to hit something. "The biggest pedal pressure I've ever seen," says McLaren's Paddy Lowe, "was when we had a suspension failure in testing with Alain Prost. He got 140-bar as he tried to bring it to a stop!" Fortunately, Webber's head-on with the 4x4 on his bike left his braking leg undamaged.

[jamsbong]

Shumacher is no longer racing but he was the best. Hamilton reminds me of his braking style.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EReiD_d7 ... L&index=19[/youtube]

For me, Michael Schumacher is one driver who mastered it all. Braking is very important but if want to be the best, you also have to be perfect mid corner and corner exit. Thats what Michael is talented in. You can tell, he is always super calm when racing. For him driving at record breaking speed is like clicking a mouse for us!

Coming back to braking, Lewis' braking style is very aggressive and if he continues to improve his driving. I believe he has potential to be even better, ie. brake hard without terrible tire wear.

On the other hand, I personally think that Vettel is the best driver of all. Compared to others, Vettel is the youngest, the least experienced and didn't have the SMOOTHED troubled free upbringing like Hamilton had. Now, he already has 2 wins and he won it under conditions that most drivers would consider impossible to drive.

[meves]

Does anyone have statistics for breaking distance from bend apex or number of cars overtaken (and held) under breaking per season to give it some objectivity rather than it desending into the usual I like (enter driver name here) best therefore he is the best driver. Obviously this is pretty nerdy data so I'd be impressed it if was hanging around.

Also people must take into account that for example Button was in a car with poor braking stability he wasn't that great now his car has good braking stability he's far far better. I think Vettel is good but his car has a fabulous chassis and aero package giving him great breaking stability and maybe flattering him compared to Hamilton, Kimi, Alonso, Massa, Kubica, Webber, Bourdais, Buemi, etc, etc

[Metar]

Part of Webber's speed, aside from a fantastic sensitivity to available grip, is the huge pressure he uses on the brake pedal. At high speeds, with an F1 car's full downforce acting upon it, the limitation to how much braking can be achieved in the initial phase is how hard the driver can press the pedal. Webber routinely uses 150-bar, a figure often not even approached by most other drivers in full-on emergencies when they're trying not to hit something. "The biggest pedal pressure I've ever seen," says McLaren's Paddy Lowe, "was when we had a suspension failure in testing with Alain Prost. He got 140-bar as he tried to bring it to a stop!" Fortunately, Webber's head-on with the 4x4 on his bike left his braking leg undamaged.

Thing is, this article gives us two kinds of figures: One from Paddy Lowe regarding a driver who retired over 15 years ago - a figure I've never seen before, but still a figure from a reliable, experienced engineer. The other figure doesn't cite a source - I admit, a magazine is no Wikipedia - but it's still an unverified (for us) figure that comes in an article that favours Webber. Unless it was published in a serious, tech-minded F1 publication, I'd doubt it's authenticity - and even then, I'd have my doubts.

I like Webber, but I find it hard to believe he puts more pressure on the brakes than any other driver a long-time engineer ever saw - 1987-1993 at Williams (Prost, Mansell, Piquet), 1994-present at McLaren (Mika, Kimi, Coulthard, Montoya). Admittedly, in these modern days, drivers are far more fit - but regularly pushing pressures that a four-time champion only managed during an emergency? Either Paddy Lowe didn't look at the charts lately, or the figure given about Webber was far too high.

[ISLAMATRON]

WEbber is the biggest/strongest of the group you just mentioned. Mansell was big but notoriously not in the best shape.

Prost wasnt that big a guy.

[Metar]

But foot-muscles? Yeah, Mansell was never in shape... But is Webber really that much stronger, at his feet, than Montoya? Or better yet, than Button the marathon-runner, or Schumacher? Yes, they weren't under Lowe's teams - but if the 150bar figure was so easy to fetch, no doubt Ferrari could've told them just how hard Schumacher can push the brakes?

[ISLAMATRON]

I'm not saying it is true, i'm just stating some possibilities why it might be. Webbo is/was a triathlete so i'm sure he's in fantasic shape. He may be more of an athlete who chose race car driving rather than a race car driver who employs strength training to increase his speed.

Their are some incredibly freaky athletes out there.... for example Nate Robinson, the 5 foot 8 inch NBA dunk champion who jumped over his 7 foot competitor. His level of athleticism is unmatched in my eyes of late.

[Richard]

I read "best on brakes" as "best at out braking a competitor (and staying in front)". A mechanic woud probably think of it as "deson't destroy the pads and tyres". However it is not "how's best at cornering" - although those graphs are fascinating!

If it is about out braking then Hamilton seems to pull the most dramatic moves with most success, and the occasional failure (spa 08, china 07).

Alonso has similar instinct, he often makes some stunning overtaking moves, but often can't make it stick on the exit (silerstone 08), or loses it by being out of shape for the next corner (china 09)

I also recall Kimi being rather dramatic with his brakes at Monte Carlo 08, but that was memorable for a different reason.

If it is about smooth efficent use of the mechanics, then you're looking for the guys who never lock up. The ones who never feature on a replay, but still seem to get fast laptimes.... dare I say it .... boring?

Sorry to prick teh bubble about how much brake pressure a driver can generate but .... that's a function of the length of the pedal, and the diameter of the piston/pipes. Each driver has their own pedal lengths to suit their feet and strength, so each driver will be different. Given the right arrangement, an old granny in size 3 slippers could exert more pressure than Webber, although the length of pedal wouldn't fit in the cockpit!

[PlatinumZealot]

That right.. It's about what you do with the brakes not how hard you can press it.

[DaveKillens]

There is a huge difference in driving positions from Prost to Webber. Prost never drove a car with the high nose, and therefore his feet were much lower, and in more of a straight line relative to his general body position. Webber, meanwhile, has to sit in a very unusual position, dictated by the high nose and the necessity to lower his center of mass as much as possible. He is reclined a lot, then his legs are raised much higher than his hips, and the pedals are very high compared to the type of system Prost enjoyed. Just imagine laying in Webber's position, and having to press a brake pedal, very hard, and repeatedly for almost two hours. And with great precision.

[SoliRossi]

True you can question the validity of the article but they seem to both be pretty reliable. Many things change from car to car/year to year but as far as i was aware it was widley accepted that Mark generated freakish amounts of force on the pedal.

To tie it into why i think he is one of the best on the breaks is not that he can push it so hard but that he can push it so hard but never lock up. Lets assume that article is very accurate (iv no reason to believe it is not) then Mark pushes the pedal so hard but has such feel for the avaliable grip that you rarley ever see him lock up.

This then to me translates into a guy being brilliant on the brakes.

Also the referance to Nate Robinson was brilliant, there are athelites out there that are just freakish, Lance Armstrong is another freak, his Vo2 Max is just out of this world.

[ringo]

I agree that braking skill has to be rated by successful passes. This might just end the argument though because we already know who has the most success at passing in the last 2 years. Hard on the tires or brakes, as long as there is enough life in them to finish a race i guess its worth wearing them out.
If we look on the most skilled at taking care of the brakes and tires, i would say Sebastian bourdais , the Lemans driving style dictates that kind of conservationist attitude.

[PlatinumZealot]

Bahrain confirmed it for me! Not just best braker also best KERS user!

[Afterburner]

Are people here forgetting Rubens Barrichello? Since he had a crash on cosworth's time (don't remeber wich circuit) he uses only the right foot to brake a accelerate, i think it's a big disavantage compared to others. Take a look on this:

http://txhxqx.googlepages.com/Schumi_vs_Rubens.pdf


On this site there's an interview and one of the questions was how was Rubens braking this year, he said that he uses the same brakes has Button with the exception Rubens uses differente brake pads, according to Rubens he has to use brake pads that work at higher temperature comparade to Button to "bite" more the discs because Button's style is more smooth and his brake pads don't "bite" so much.

Here's the interview in Portuguese:
http://jovempan.uol.com.br/blogs/f1/200 ... asileiros/