2022 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

[Big Tea]

No! MGU-K can harvest only if the brake pedal is pushed.. not in the straits at full speed.

But how far (hard?) would it have to be pushed to be legal. Does it have to be proportional, or jus as long as there is a signal. I assumed it could harvest on lift, without the peddle actually being used.( I really do not know, just asking, not arguing)

The true question is, given that the rulebook gives a torque delivery curve defined in function of throttle position and rpm, is that torque defined, to say in some form, at crankshaft exit (only ICE) or at clutch exit (as accounting for ICE + MGUK torque).

As long as I think, the torque characteristics are taken for the PU as a whole.

As I see it, you can release the throttle, run your ICE at 120kw, harvest with the MGUK at 120kw and obtain a net torque of 0nm "outside" the PU, not breaking any torque relative rule (0% throttle = 0% torque).

How much can be gathered by the lights? It seems they indicate when the throttle is lifted, but is this an actual indication of what is happening or just for the benefit of a following car?

[BassVirolla]

But how far (hard?) would it have to be pushed to be legal. Does it have to be proportional, or jus as long as there is a signal. I assumed it could harvest on lift, without the peddle actually being used.( I really do not know, just asking, not arguing)

The true question is, given that the rulebook gives a torque delivery curve defined in function of throttle position and rpm, is that torque defined, to say in some form, at crankshaft exit (only ICE) or at clutch exit (as accounting for ICE + MGUK torque).

As long as I think, the torque characteristics are taken for the PU as a whole.

As I see it, you can release the throttle, run your ICE at 120kw, harvest with the MGUK at 120kw and obtain a net torque of 0nm "outside" the PU, not breaking any torque relative rule (0% throttle = 0% torque).

How much can be gathered by the lights? It seems they indicate when the throttle is lifted, but is this an actual indication of what is happening or just for the benefit of a following car?

I'm not sure, but lights are also a warning for "derating": WOT, but MGUK stopped pushing.

I suppose that the speed, over certain threshold, will decrease if you cut your power by 120kw.

Edit: I "only suppose" because in racing is not usual to keep a cruise speed on purpose. In road cruising, lowering power will always decrease speed.

Accelerating while racing, if you decrease power, it can (depending on situation):
- reduce acceleration, while gaining speed
- stagnate in a cruise speed
- reduce speed

[Andres125sx]

It reduces speed, it can be seen on onboards and also on telemetry shown on pre-season tests thread.

If MGUK was cut on the acceleration phase then not, but that´s an extremelly inneficient way to use energy as that acceleration means the car will be faster/slower the whole straight. It´s much more efficient to use it in acceleration, and save it at the end of the straight when the car is almost at max speed so there´re few meters ahead before hitting the brakes

Max speed is the result of drag matching power pushing the car ahead, the car accelerates so drag is increasing constantly, until that power pushing the car ahead, and drag, becomes equal. If then you suddenly reduce power, drag becomes higher than the power pushing, and speed is reduced until drag match the new (lower) power level again

[ScottR267]

[saviour stivala]

The true question is, given that the rulebook gives a torque delivery curve defined in function of throttle position and rpm, is that torque defined, to say in some form, at crankshaft exit (only ICE) or at clutch exit (as accounting for ICE + MGUK torque).

As long as I think, the torque characteristics are taken for the PU as a whole.

As I see it, you can release the throttle, run your ICE at 120kw, harvest with the MGUK at 120kw and obtain a net torque of 0nm "outside" the PU, not breaking any torque relative rule (0% throttle = 0% torque).

How much can be gathered by the lights? It seems they indicate when the throttle is lifted, but is this an actual indication of what is happening or just for the benefit of a following car?

I'm not sure, but lights are also a warning for "derating": WOT, but MGUK stopped pushing.

I suppose that the speed, over certain threshold, will decrease if you cut your power by 120kw.

Edit: I "only suppose" because in racing is not usual to keep a cruise speed on purpose. In road cruising, lowering power will always decrease speed.

Accelerating while racing, if you decrease power, it can (depending on situation):
- reduce acceleration, while gaining speed
- stagnate in a cruise speed
- reduce speed

The 'K' is trigered into harvesting by the brake pedal only. (ERS - energy recovery system - recovers energy the car has lost - there are two types of enrgy the car losses - heat and kintic - kintic energy id recovered by 'K' - 'K' harness waste kintic from brakes. So unless brakes are activated it cannot harvest any wasted kintic energy.

[gastonmazzacane]

Nice try

[MV8]

C'mon mate... I was really happy with their departure.

[NL_Fer]

Is that like a season membership for the PMI board and shareholders and guest? Does PMI need marketing in 2022?

[Airshifter]

The true question is, given that the rulebook gives a torque delivery curve defined in function of throttle position and rpm, is that torque defined, to say in some form, at crankshaft exit (only ICE) or at clutch exit (as accounting for ICE + MGUK torque).

As long as I think, the torque characteristics are taken for the PU as a whole.

As I see it, you can release the throttle, run your ICE at 120kw, harvest with the MGUK at 120kw and obtain a net torque of 0nm "outside" the PU, not breaking any torque relative rule (0% throttle = 0% torque).

That's an interesting viewpoint. Staying on the throttle while harvesting would still produce a net to the wheels torque of 0% and thus be allowed by the regs.

Since in theory the amount of engine braking vs harvest power generation braking vs actual mechanical braking is all smoothed and controlled by the ECU, the driver could easily switch modes and harvest quickly during certain period of time.

The 'K' is trigered into harvesting by the brake pedal only. (ERS - energy recovery system - recovers energy the car has lost - there are two types of enrgy the car losses - heat and kintic - kintic energy id recovered by 'K' - 'K' harness waste kintic from brakes. So unless brakes are activated it cannot harvest any wasted kintic energy.

What source do you have that states this as correct? I'm certainly not saying I have all the answers, but I've yet to see any regulation or team statement that would require this to be the case. Much like engine braking, the amount of K induced braking would impact the speed at which the car slows, all other aero/track conditions being accounted for.







The only thing I've ever seen attached directly to the FIA has a set of conditions on speed and throttle position, and that a torque reduction of 120KW or more has taken place must trigger the lights. It doesn't say anything about energy harvest, brake pedal or actual brake use, rate of acceleration or deceleration, etc.

We've seen lights flashing when cars were accelerating, or attempting to accelerate in other conditions.

[saviour stivala]

(Insuring efficiency) ‘’2014 formula one power unit regulations – power unit 2014 – the changes are comprehensive, and so via straightforward explanation and with help of insights from FIA head of powertrain Fabrice Lom’’. Is a good start-up point to read all about how MGU-K harvests/harness kinetic energy from the car’s braking system that would have otherwise gone to waste. If as some persist in believing that the MGU-K also harvests/harness energy other than from the car braking system. Such harvesting harnessing of energy will be totally contrary to the aimed spirits of the regulatory body introduction of the ERS part of the power unit.

[Airshifter]

(Insuring efficiency) ‘’2014 formula one power unit regulations – power unit 2014 – the changes are comprehensive, and so via straightforward explanation and with help of insights from FIA head of powertrain Fabrice Lom’’. Is a good start-up point to read all about how MGU-K harvests/harness kinetic energy from the car’s braking system that would have otherwise gone to waste. If as some persist in believing that the MGU-K also harvests/harness energy other than from the car braking system. Such harvesting harnessing of energy will be totally contrary to the aimed spirits of the regulatory body introduction of the ERS part of the power unit.

Being that the MGU-K is part of the cars braking system, I can agree that it would only harvest during braking events. But to me this does not dictate it only occurs when a driver hits the brake pedal.

And I've yet to see any regulation or directive that requires that to be the case. If anyone else has seen such a regulation or directive I like for them to cite it.

[bluechris]

Ferrari does something different for sure and it's obvious of the rear brake disc's that seem to be the smaller ones on the grid.

[saviour stivala]

(Insuring efficiency) ‘’2014 formula one power unit regulations – power unit 2014 – the changes are comprehensive, and so via straightforward explanation and with help of insights from FIA head of powertrain Fabrice Lom’’. Is a good start-up point to read all about how MGU-K harvests/harness kinetic energy from the car’s braking system that would have otherwise gone to waste. If as some persist in believing that the MGU-K also harvests/harness energy other than from the car braking system. Such harvesting harnessing of energy will be totally contrary to the aimed spirits of the regulatory body introduction of the ERS part of the power unit.

Being that the MGU-K is part of the cars braking system, I can agree that it would only harvest during braking events. But to me this does not dictate it only occurs when a driver hits the brake pedal.

And I've yet to see any regulation or directive that requires that to be the case. If anyone else has seen such a regulation or directive I like for them to cite it.

''Being that the MGU-K is part of the cars braking system (thanks for recognising that, and agreeing) that it would only harvest during braking events''. Is why I said that the brake pedal is the 'switch' that activates MGU-K harvesting. ''I have yet to see any regulations or directive that requires that to be the case'' You will not see any, simply because there is no need too as the intoducation of the new power unit statement for 2014 states ''ERS-K will harvest/harness braking kinetic energy that would have otherwise gone to waste''. Further to the above. this (MGU-K) part of the ERS system is not for free. But limited by regulations to a maximum of 2mj per lap of harvesting and a maximum of 4mj per lap of deployment. While the (MGU-H) part of the ERS system is for free in both harvesting and deployment. With the (ES) also being restricted by regulations to a maximum of 4mj per lap of deployment. And here another note. Some poeple are also wrong in still believing that because (MGU-H) deployment/harvesting is for free (unlimitted). (MGU-H - to - MGU-K) being unlimitted, (MGU-K) - to- engine crankshaft is also unlimitted. which is not the case. As (MGU-K) to crankshaft is still limitted to a maximum of 4mj per lap.

[tpe]

I haven't see in the regulation this restriction as you say. The path MGU-H --> MGU-K is unlimited.
The path MGU-K --> rear wheels is limited in terms of power (+/- 120KW).
In the Appendix 3 of the regulations (at least of the 2021) it's clear that there is no 4MJ restriction.
https://www.fia.com/sites/default/files ... -12-16.pdf

However, if you find it in another place, please send us the page. I believe it will be useful for everyone.

[saviour stivala]

Yes. Although MGU-H – to – MGU-K is unlimited, MGU-K – to – crankshaft is still limited to the MGU-K specification of 120kw (161bhp). What the unlimited electricity generated by the MG-H can do is, it can add to the 33 seconds limit maximum that can be used from ES each lap. The more electricity the team power unit can generate from MGU-H, the longer they can use their electric power boost. But remember that that boost is limited by MGU-K maximum output to crankshaft.