2022 - McLaren Formula 1 Team

[JordanMugen]

- McLaren is one of the losers of the Hybrid aera

Isn't that only because McLaren refused to sell to Mercedes-Benz when they had the chance?

Otherwise Mercedes chassis funding would have flowed to McLaren rather than Mercedes GP, just as it did previously.

IIRC, in the latter seasons of "Vodafone McLaren Mercedes", McLaren were providing Mercedes branding on the car as part of buying back Mercedes' share -- so money was in effect flowing from McLaren to Mercedes, rather than the other way around as it had done previously. Please correct me if I am wrong on that.

The role of Mercedes support seems to be overlooked when considering McLaren success between 1995 and 2014 (or lack thereof in 2013 & 2014). If Sauber-Mercedes was the works-backed Mercedes team, and McLaren-Mercedes were a paying customer, would McLaren-Mercedes have been nearly as successful?

- McLaren is/was nearly broken financially.

See above. If so, why did McLaren buy out Mercedes' share (i.e., losing money) rather than sell to them (i.e., gaining money)?!

[_cerber1]

According to Lando, Ric retired due to a broken driveshaft. Thus, this problem is on the side of the team, not the engine, and it can certainly be solved.

[basti313]

Interesting comments...
McLaren's best years to date were with a Renault engine.
By getting close to supplier like Renault it's possible to build a successful partenership as Red Bull did with Honda...

Renault will always have their own team as team A. They have 100% control over the cooling and packing of the engine.
Do you think the no-pod stunt of Mercedes this year would be possible for a B team like McLaren?

I don't think McLaren was targeted to be a loser of the hybrid era, they had litteraly the best engine in 2014, they tried something with Honda, and they let them go when they started improving. From their they had a very reliable PU with a little power deficit but Red Bull managed to win some race with it you know...

Yes they were. Especially Ferrari was in big anger against McLaren and RedBull when the new engine rules were shaped and lobbied for an as complicated and as open as possible cooling of the engine. Just check the rules...there is up till today no single spec part in cooling or any cost reduction in cooling. Only internal engine parts are highly restricted to reduce cost.
Mercedes realized this, supported Ferrari and went for their own works team.

They don't need to build their own engine again to be successful... Especially as engine are said to be more or less equal now.

Yes and no. Basically this is what we saw last season...once the aero rules are stable over years the B teams catch up. This year with the E10 and new aero there is a bigger gap to B teams.
So if we are lucky, the aero rules stay the same and the new engines get more delayed. Then teams like McLaren will catch up.

- McLaren is one of the losers of the Hybrid aera

Isn't that only because McLaren refused to sell to Mercedes-Benz when they had the chance?

Good question.

No, I do not think you can say this. It is the whole concept of McLaren to be an F1 constructor, high tech supplier and sportscar manufacturer. But the DNA comes from being a F1 constructor.
Selling the team to Merc would have meant to sell out the DNA of the McLaren group. Impossible, isn't it?

You are right on the money. Of course this keeping of the DNA in the end put them far behind to Merc, Ferrari, RedBull in terms of available group budgets. And as said, I think it is wrong to look only at the F1 budgets, this is not what pulls good people into your team. Newey and Allison designing boats and road cars is only one example of what a strong group means...and the McLaren group is simply not as strong as a tech inventor with money to play as for example RedBull is today.

But I think a core of the issues are simple management issues:
- McLaren was sticking to Mercedes while they were "hostile". They suddenly had the manpower drain in aero and chassis and an engine hard to integrate.
- Then they rushed Honda. Honda had to deploy the engine one year earlier and was forced into the token system a year earlier.
- Once the good step to the split turbo was done McLaren cancelled the deal under strongly rising performance.

While the first one of the three is hard to prevent, that last one was utterly stupid.

[Spoutnik]

Interesting comments...
McLaren's best years to date were with a Renault engine.
By getting close to supplier like Renault it's possible to build a successful partenership as Red Bull did with Honda...

Renault will always have their own team as team A. They have 100% control over the cooling and packing of the engine.
Do you think the no-pod stunt of Mercedes this year would be possible for a B team like McLaren?

I don't think McLaren was targeted to be a loser of the hybrid era, they had litteraly the best engine in 2014, they tried something with Honda, and they let them go when they started improving. From their they had a very reliable PU with a little power deficit but Red Bull managed to win some race with it you know...

Yes they were. Especially Ferrari was in big anger against McLaren and RedBull when the new engine rules were shaped and lobbied for an as complicated and as open as possible cooling of the engine. Just check the rules...there is up till today no single spec part in cooling or any cost reduction in cooling. Only internal engine parts are highly restricted to reduce cost.
Mercedes realized this, supported Ferrari and went for their own works team.

They don't need to build their own engine again to be successful... Especially as engine are said to be more or less equal now.

Yes and no. Basically this is what we saw last season...once the aero rules are stable over years the B teams catch up. This year with the E10 and new aero there is a bigger gap to B teams.
So if we are lucky, the aero rules stay the same and the new engines get more delayed. Then teams like McLaren will catch up.

- McLaren is one of the losers of the Hybrid aera

Isn't that only because McLaren refused to sell to Mercedes-Benz when they had the chance?

Good question.

No, I do not think you can say this. It is the whole concept of McLaren to be an F1 constructor, high tech supplier and sportscar manufacturer. But the DNA comes from being a F1 constructor.
Selling the team to Merc would have meant to sell out the DNA of the McLaren group. Impossible, isn't it?

You are right on the money. Of course this keeping of the DNA in the end put them far behind to Merc, Ferrari, RedBull in terms of available group budgets. And as said, I think it is wrong to look only at the F1 budgets, this is not what pulls good people into your team. Newey and Allison designing boats and road cars is only one example of what a strong group means...and the McLaren group is simply not as strong as a tech inventor with money to play as for example RedBull is today.

But I think a core of the issues are simple management issues:
- McLaren was sticking to Mercedes while they were "hostile". They suddenly had the manpower drain in aero and chassis and an engine hard to integrate.
- Then they rushed Honda. Honda had to deploy the engine one year earlier and was forced into the token system a year earlier.
- Once the good step to the split turbo was done McLaren cancelled the deal under strongly rising performance.

While the first one of the three is hard to prevent, that last one was utterly stupid.

I always heard these kind of arguments. I understand them but realistically is it a problem ?
If your chassis is better, regardless of how well you are integrating the PU, you will succeed.
Didn't RB won 2010-12 despite Renault having a factory team ?
Didn't McLaren were competitive despite Mercedes having a factory team in the same period ?
Ofc nobody has ever won something relevant with a Ferrari engine, ofc Mercedes would've never given their PU when RB wanted to get rid of the Renault, but McLaren can have a good deal with Renault a be like Red Bull early 2010's...
Furthermore, Renault for the first time since very long is only supllying engine to it's own factory team.

I don't understand your point, you mean that the rules are complicating the coolings in order to favour factory team with their own PU ?

The gap isn't bigger for Ferrari powered teams. The issue is that each Mercedes powered teams got their owns issues
Concerning Honda, they look to me to give the same engine to both teams.

[basti313]

I always heard these kind of arguments. I understand them but realistically is it a problem ?

Yes, there is no non-works team really competing.

Until 2016 RedBull was quasi works team to Renault. Except for the time the Merc engine was superior and until Ferrari played too much with the engine grey areas, the picture is clear with 1,2,3, sometimes 4 for the works teams.

If your chassis is better, regardless of how well you are integrating the PU, you will succeed.
Didn't RB won 2010-12 despite Renault having a factory team ?
Didn't McLaren were competitive despite Mercedes having a factory team in the same period ?

It seems you did not even read my post. That was before the Hybrid engine. Completely different rules. As said the rules were shaped clearly to prevent this.

I don't understand your point, you mean that the rules are complicating the coolings in order to favour factory team with their own PU ?

Yes. The cooling is completely open. If the rules would be fair to non-works teams, there would be a spec cooling.

The gap isn't bigger for Ferrari powered teams. The issue is that each Mercedes powered teams got their owns issues
Concerning Honda, they look to me to give the same engine to both teams.

The monster engine for Hamilton last season was certainly a special thing, usually the engines are the same. The issue is that the B team is starting the season on the cooling requirements of the last season. So they either need to adjust the concept or drive more conservative settings.

Ferrari shows the same...as soon as Ferrari and Haas are working closer, they are suddenly the strongest Ferrari team.
Same for the pink Mercedes...one of its strengths was not only the aero concept, which was giving them a hard time in the end, but suddenly the perfect cooling concept. And also this vanished in 2021 with the upgraded engine.

[SmallSoldier]

According to Lando, Ric retired due to a broken driveshaft. Thus, this problem is on the side of the team, not the engine, and it can certainly be solved.

That’s good news, it’s definitely something the team should be able to address rather quickly and it isn’t related to the PU or it’s cooling (which would be a larger challenge).

Thanks for sharing

[diffuser]

I always heard these kind of arguments. I understand them but realistically is it a problem ?

Yes, there is no non-works team really competing.

Until 2016 RedBull was quasi works team to Renault. Except for the time the Merc engine was superior and until Ferrari played too much with the engine grey areas, the picture is clear with 1,2,3, sometimes 4 for the works teams.

If your chassis is better, regardless of how well you are integrating the PU, you will succeed.
Didn't RB won 2010-12 despite Renault having a factory team ?
Didn't McLaren were competitive despite Mercedes having a factory team in the same period ?

It seems you did not even read my post. That was before the Hybrid engine. Completely different rules. As said the rules were shaped clearly to prevent this.

I don't understand your point, you mean that the rules are complicating the coolings in order to favour factory team with their own PU ?

Yes. The cooling is completely open. If the rules would be fair to non-works teams, there would be a spec cooling.

The gap isn't bigger for Ferrari powered teams. The issue is that each Mercedes powered teams got their owns issues
Concerning Honda, they look to me to give the same engine to both teams.

The monster engine for Hamilton last season was certainly a special thing, usually the engines are the same. The issue is that the B team is starting the season on the cooling requirements of the last season. So they either need to adjust the concept or drive more conservative settings.

Ferrari shows the same...as soon as Ferrari and Haas are working closer, they are suddenly the strongest Ferrari team.
Same for the pink Mercedes...one of its strengths was not only the aero concept, which was giving them a hard time in the end, but suddenly the perfect cooling concept. And also this vanished in 2021 with the upgraded engine.

I think, for the near future, looking at F1's past to predict who will do well in F1's future is nolonger something that will reliably guide the gambler. The rules have changed so much with regards to PUs and PU distribution that the edge is nolonger there. Fact is that McLaren could have gotten the PUs to work like Merc's last year but they didn't want to pay More for more PUs. As part of thier Contract with Merc they get a set number of PUs to get through the year. Over and above that you need to pay for more. Mclaren just couldn't overcome 5 or more years of Merceedes over investment in that series of chassis that ended in 2021. That and alot of the extra prise money they would have won for finishing 3ird instead of forth would have been off set by the extra PU expenses. So they just Rolled the dice.


For the next 4 years nothing will change in the PU space. Works team advantage ZERO.


Also the Works teams you mentioned "the picture is clear with 1,2,3, sometimes 4 for the works teams." spent more than double everyone else. Did they do so well cause they were a works team or was it that they spent double everyone else on thier chassis?

Like I said forget what you know of F1. A new rule book has been written.


Also with a CAP in place, you can't give special privelages to just anybody, you can over pay just 3 people. With Newey playing with boats your number 4 becomes very important but you can't pay him cause he's your #4. So along comes AMR and says we'll pay you $$$$$ and put you in our untouchable's list. Bye bye #4. Those advanatges you talked about have disappeared or have become very limited in scope.

[basti313]

I always heard these kind of arguments. I understand them but realistically is it a problem ?

Yes, there is no non-works team really competing.

Until 2016 RedBull was quasi works team to Renault. Except for the time the Merc engine was superior and until Ferrari played too much with the engine grey areas, the picture is clear with 1,2,3, sometimes 4 for the works teams.

If your chassis is better, regardless of how well you are integrating the PU, you will succeed.
Didn't RB won 2010-12 despite Renault having a factory team ?
Didn't McLaren were competitive despite Mercedes having a factory team in the same period ?

It seems you did not even read my post. That was before the Hybrid engine. Completely different rules. As said the rules were shaped clearly to prevent this.

I don't understand your point, you mean that the rules are complicating the coolings in order to favour factory team with their own PU ?

Yes. The cooling is completely open. If the rules would be fair to non-works teams, there would be a spec cooling.

The gap isn't bigger for Ferrari powered teams. The issue is that each Mercedes powered teams got their owns issues
Concerning Honda, they look to me to give the same engine to both teams.

The monster engine for Hamilton last season was certainly a special thing, usually the engines are the same. The issue is that the B team is starting the season on the cooling requirements of the last season. So they either need to adjust the concept or drive more conservative settings.

Ferrari shows the same...as soon as Ferrari and Haas are working closer, they are suddenly the strongest Ferrari team.
Same for the pink Mercedes...one of its strengths was not only the aero concept, which was giving them a hard time in the end, but suddenly the perfect cooling concept. And also this vanished in 2021 with the upgraded engine.

I think, for the near future, looking at F1's past to predict who will do well in F1's future is nolonger something that will reliably guide the gambler. The rules have changed so much with regards to PUs and PU distribution that the edge is nolonger there. Fact is that McLaren could have gotten the PUs to work like Merc's last year but they didn't want to pay More for more PUs. As part of thier Contract with Merc they get a set number of PUs to get through the year. Over and above that you need to pay for more. Mclaren just couldn't overcome 5 or more years of Merceedes over investment in that series of chassis that ended in 2021. That and alot of the extra prise money they would have won for finishing 3ird instead of forth would have been off set by the extra PU expenses. So they just Rolled the dice.


For the next 4 years nothing will change in the PU space. Works team advantage ZERO.


Also the Works teams you mentioned "the picture is clear with 1,2,3, sometimes 4 for the works teams." spent more than double everyone else. Did they do so well cause they were a works team or was it that they spent double everyone else on thier chassis?

Like I said forget what you know of F1. A new rule book has been written.


Also with a CAP in place, you can't give special privelages to just anybody, you can over pay just 3 people. With Newey playing with boats your number 4 becomes very important but you can't pay him cause he's your #4. So along comes AMR and says we'll pay you $$$$$ and put you in our untouchable's list. Bye bye #4. Those advanatges you talked about have disappeared or have become very limited in scope.

You have a quite narrow picture.
Newey playing with boats is not under the budget cap. This is exactly what will pull good people: The group, not the F1 team.

Looking at budgets you are also quite wrong. The McLaren budget was always similar to the RedBull budget during the last two rule changes. Still they were FAR behind. But this will not change in new rules. Of course the works teams will keep the control on how the engine team works. They give the parts for stress testing, they outsource the cooling development. There will not be a Haas cooler on the Ferrari test bench, there is a Ferrari cooling system on the Ferrari test bench. Guess why the B teams were leaking fluids out of every hose in testing...

Regarding forgetting the past: We can do this. Ok...the season is not long, but P1-P4 in constructors are who? Under cost cap? Not works teams?

[diffuser]

Yes, there is no non-works team really competing.

Until 2016 RedBull was quasi works team to Renault. Except for the time the Merc engine was superior and until Ferrari played too much with the engine grey areas, the picture is clear with 1,2,3, sometimes 4 for the works teams.


It seems you did not even read my post. That was before the Hybrid engine. Completely different rules. As said the rules were shaped clearly to prevent this.


Yes. The cooling is completely open. If the rules would be fair to non-works teams, there would be a spec cooling.


The monster engine for Hamilton last season was certainly a special thing, usually the engines are the same. The issue is that the B team is starting the season on the cooling requirements of the last season. So they either need to adjust the concept or drive more conservative settings.

Ferrari shows the same...as soon as Ferrari and Haas are working closer, they are suddenly the strongest Ferrari team.
Same for the pink Mercedes...one of its strengths was not only the aero concept, which was giving them a hard time in the end, but suddenly the perfect cooling concept. And also this vanished in 2021 with the upgraded engine.

I think, for the near future, looking at F1's past to predict who will do well in F1's future is nolonger something that will reliably guide the gambler. The rules have changed so much with regards to PUs and PU distribution that the edge is nolonger there. Fact is that McLaren could have gotten the PUs to work like Merc's last year but they didn't want to pay More for more PUs. As part of thier Contract with Merc they get a set number of PUs to get through the year. Over and above that you need to pay for more. Mclaren just couldn't overcome 5 or more years of Merceedes over investment in that series of chassis that ended in 2021. That and alot of the extra prise money they would have won for finishing 3ird instead of forth would have been off set by the extra PU expenses. So they just Rolled the dice.


For the next 4 years nothing will change in the PU space. Works team advantage ZERO.


Also the Works teams you mentioned "the picture is clear with 1,2,3, sometimes 4 for the works teams." spent more than double everyone else. Did they do so well cause they were a works team or was it that they spent double everyone else on thier chassis?

Like I said forget what you know of F1. A new rule book has been written.


Also with a CAP in place, you can't give special privelages to just anybody, you can over pay just 3 people. With Newey playing with boats your number 4 becomes very important but you can't pay him cause he's your #4. So along comes AMR and says we'll pay you $$$$$ and put you in our untouchable's list. Bye bye #4. Those advanatges you talked about have disappeared or have become very limited in scope.

You have a quite narrow picture.
Newey playing with boats is not under the budget cap. This is exactly what will pull good people: The group, not the F1 team.

Looking at budgets you are also quite wrong. The McLaren budget was always similar to the RedBull budget during the last two rule changes. Still they were FAR behind. But this will not change in new rules. Of course the works teams will keep the control on how the engine team works. They give the parts for stress testing, they outsource the cooling development. There will not be a Haas cooler on the Ferrari test bench, there is a Ferrari cooling system on the Ferrari test bench. Guess why the B teams were leaking fluids out of every hose in testing...

Regarding forgetting the past: We can do this. Ok...the season is not long, but P1-P4 in constructors are who? Under cost cap? Not works teams?

From https://beyondtheflag.com/2019/11/06/fo ... impending/

3. Red Bull Racing  $445 million 
4. Renault          $272 million
5. McLaren          $269 million

For Renault that $272 was both PU and Chassis.

[JordanMugen]

Didn't RB won 2010-12 despite Renault having a factory team ?

I forgot that Renault raced as Lotus Renault in 2011 (so that was their last season not 2010), but nevertheless Renault appeared as a sponsor on the rear wing of the Red Bull at Abu Dhabi 2010, and Infiniti (part of Nissan-Renault) was then a major sponsor of Red Bull thereafter.

Until 2016 RedBull was quasi works team to Renault.

Exactly.

Didn't McLaren were competitive despite Mercedes having a factory team in the same period ?

Wasn't that just the last remnants from the previous era when Mercedes supported McLaren finances heavily? In 2010-2011, McLaren facilities were up-to-date, they aren't anymore.

[Mostlyeels]

https://www.racefans.net/2022/04/06/mcl ... -duct-fix/

McLaren team principal Andreas Seidl said the team’s focus would be on “understanding more the current strengths and weaknesses of the car” before this weekend’s Australian Grand Prix. “We need to see which improvements we can make already for Melbourne,” he added. “At the same time I don’t expect big miracles there, we simply need a bit more time.”

The braking problem the team encountered for the first time in Bahrain forced it to run an interim fix at the opening two races. “In the time available it was the only solution we could bring to the car which is definitely not optimal in terms of performance,” said Seidl.

However, he admitted the team has other problems to resolve on its MCL36. “We simply lack grip, which is the result of missing mechanical grip and aerodynamic load on the car, which was [clear] on the race weekend in Bahrain,” he said. “Definitely not just an issue of the current brake ducts we’re running.”

[diffuser]

Didn't RB won 2010-12 despite Renault having a factory team ?

I forgot that Renault raced as Lotus Renault in 2011 (so that was their last season not 2010), but nevertheless Renault appeared as a sponsor on the rear wing of the Red Bull at Abu Dhabi 2010, and Infiniti (part of Nissan-Renault) was then a major sponsor of Red Bull thereafter.

Until 2016 RedBull was quasi works team to Renault.

Exactly.

Didn't McLaren were competitive despite Mercedes having a factory team in the same period ?

Wasn't that just the last remnants from the previous era when Mercedes supported McLaren finances heavily? In 2010-2011, McLaren facilities were up-to-date, they aren't anymore.

You could still argue that RBR are still a quasi works team with Honda. The PU they've used since Honda came over was really designed with input from McLaren. By the time it got put into a SAT, the diminsions and where everything got connected was already established. Honda was improving performance and reliability. The rules have since changed, Honda can't give improvements to RBR without making them available to SAT. Which is why I think the works thing today is largely a myth. Atleast the value to a works team in the 1st two decades of this millennium might have been a 15% boost in performance, today is less than 1%.

PU Manufactures create a Product that has to be identical to everyone they supply.

[trinidefender]

I think, for the near future, looking at F1's past to predict who will do well in F1's future is nolonger something that will reliably guide the gambler. The rules have changed so much with regards to PUs and PU distribution that the edge is nolonger there. Fact is that McLaren could have gotten the PUs to work like Merc's last year but they didn't want to pay More for more PUs. As part of thier Contract with Merc they get a set number of PUs to get through the year. Over and above that you need to pay for more. Mclaren just couldn't overcome 5 or more years of Merceedes over investment in that series of chassis that ended in 2021. That and alot of the extra prise money they would have won for finishing 3ird instead of forth would have been off set by the extra PU expenses. So they just Rolled the dice.


For the next 4 years nothing will change in the PU space. Works team advantage ZERO.


Also the Works teams you mentioned "the picture is clear with 1,2,3, sometimes 4 for the works teams." spent more than double everyone else. Did they do so well cause they were a works team or was it that they spent double everyone else on thier chassis?

Like I said forget what you know of F1. A new rule book has been written.


Also with a CAP in place, you can't give special privelages to just anybody, you can over pay just 3 people. With Newey playing with boats your number 4 becomes very important but you can't pay him cause he's your #4. So along comes AMR and says we'll pay you $$$$$ and put you in our untouchable's list. Bye bye #4. Those advanatges you talked about have disappeared or have become very limited in scope.

You have a quite narrow picture.
Newey playing with boats is not under the budget cap. This is exactly what will pull good people: The group, not the F1 team.

Looking at budgets you are also quite wrong. The McLaren budget was always similar to the RedBull budget during the last two rule changes. Still they were FAR behind. But this will not change in new rules. Of course the works teams will keep the control on how the engine team works. They give the parts for stress testing, they outsource the cooling development. There will not be a Haas cooler on the Ferrari test bench, there is a Ferrari cooling system on the Ferrari test bench. Guess why the B teams were leaking fluids out of every hose in testing...

Regarding forgetting the past: We can do this. Ok...the season is not long, but P1-P4 in constructors are who? Under cost cap? Not works teams?

From https://beyondtheflag.com/2019/11/06/fo ... impending/

3. Red Bull Racing  $445 million 
4. Renault          $272 million
5. McLaren          $269 million

For Renault that $272 was both PU and Chassis.

Are you sure about that? AFAIK that's just the chassis side of the team.

[diffuser]

You have a quite narrow picture.
Newey playing with boats is not under the budget cap. This is exactly what will pull good people: The group, not the F1 team.

Looking at budgets you are also quite wrong. The McLaren budget was always similar to the RedBull budget during the last two rule changes. Still they were FAR behind. But this will not change in new rules. Of course the works teams will keep the control on how the engine team works. They give the parts for stress testing, they outsource the cooling development. There will not be a Haas cooler on the Ferrari test bench, there is a Ferrari cooling system on the Ferrari test bench. Guess why the B teams were leaking fluids out of every hose in testing...

Regarding forgetting the past: We can do this. Ok...the season is not long, but P1-P4 in constructors are who? Under cost cap? Not works teams?

From https://beyondtheflag.com/2019/11/06/fo ... impending/

3. Red Bull Racing  $445 million 
4. Renault          $272 million
5. McLaren          $269 million

For Renault that $272 was both PU and Chassis.

Are you sure about that? AFAIK that's just the chassis side of the team.

I'm wrong. Thanks for pointing that out.


I miss read this https://www.racefans.net/2020/01/02/the ... ams-spent/ Where is says "Excluding Viry-Chatillion" as including.

[Ground Effect]

From Motorsport.com, don't know if this has been posted before.

Daniel Ricciardo's retirement was due to a gearbox failure. The likelihood is that the unit has been lost from the Australian's allowance of four for the year before penalties kick in. The team believes that the issue was a one-off.