Mercedes W13

[vorticism]

As I said it already in this thread in the past, in my opinion any commentary that assumes Merc isn't smart, or hasn't thought of something obvious, is likely wrong or simplifying the problem too much. It should be obvious to assume that a team that won 8 WCCs in a row is stacked,

All during the greenwashing era, though--not an insignificant detail. Brackley only found success after the engine formula change in 2014; their power unit was the source of their record. As engine parity has been achieved over time, their leads diminished. Parity is such that even Audi are now considering entering the sport.

They weren't known for being aero leaders compared to RB for example, who won their titles prior to 2014 when aero was more critical, and engines were at closer to parity. As parity sets in again RB and Ferrari rise back in the ranks. That RB were able to keep up while using the early Renault PUs says something about the level of their chassis and aero work. Merc cars' aero usually had a bit of a design by brute force computation look to them. Staff size and money do not necessarily equate to good design leadership, so it's possible they could be barking up the wrong tree with these anhedral sidepods.

Had FIA stays against stays remained stayed they might be looking even less staid than what's already been displayed.

[KiLLu12258]

As I said it already in this thread in the past, in my opinion any commentary that assumes Merc isn't smart, or hasn't thought of something obvious, is likely wrong or simplifying the problem too much. It should be obvious to assume that a team that won 8 WCCs in a row is stacked,

All during the greenwashing era, though--not an insignificant detail. Brackley only found success after the engine formula change in 2014; their power unit was the source of their record. As engine parity has been achieved over time, their leads diminished. Parity is such that even Audi are now considering entering the sport.

They weren't known for being aero leaders compared to RB for example, who won their titles prior to 2014 when aero was more critical, and engines were at closer to parity. As parity sets in again RB and Ferrari rise back in the ranks. That RB were able to keep up while using the early Renault PUs says something about the level of their chassis and aero work. Merc cars' aero usually had a bit of a design by brute force computation look to them. Staff size and money do not necessarily equate to good design leadership, so it's possible they could be barking up the wrong tree with these anhedral sidepods.

Had FIA stays against stays remained stayed they might be looking even less staid than what's already been displayed.

engine is not far ahead for years now, still they managed to get those titles except last year.
Even when ferrari cheated with their engine, they won the title and they had years when they were absolutely the best team aero wise, dominating in monaco as example.

I mean come one. 8 titles are 8 titles. they even came out on top on the last rule change what no one else did before.

[mantikos]

As I said it already in this thread in the past, in my opinion any commentary that assumes Merc isn't smart, or hasn't thought of something obvious, is likely wrong or simplifying the problem too much. It should be obvious to assume that a team that won 8 WCCs in a row is stacked,

All during the greenwashing era, though--not an insignificant detail. Brackley only found success after the engine formula change in 2014; their power unit was the source of their record. As engine parity has been achieved over time, their leads diminished. Parity is such that even Audi are now considering entering the sport.

They weren't known for being aero leaders compared to RB for example, who won their titles prior to 2014 when aero was more critical, and engines were at closer to parity. As parity sets in again RB and Ferrari rise back in the ranks. That RB were able to keep up while using the early Renault PUs says something about the level of their chassis and aero work. Merc cars' aero usually had a bit of a design by brute force computation look to them. Staff size and money do not necessarily equate to good design leadership, so it's possible they could be barking up the wrong tree with these anhedral sidepods.

Had FIA stays against stays remained stayed they might be looking even less staid than what's already been displayed.

engine is not far ahead for years now, still they managed to get those titles except last year.
Even when ferrari cheated with their engine, they won the title and they had years when they were absolutely the best team aero wise, dominating in monaco as example.

I mean come one. 8 titles are 8 titles. they even came out on top on the last rule change what no one else did before.

Exactly, people want to live in make believe narratives even when Mercedes themselves have said that they misdirected the attention to the engine when the real innovation was suspension and aero.

[TimW]

Mercedes launched the narrative that it was not the engine last year, don't fall for it. Their advantage always reduced on circuits that were not power sensitive. Ferrari got competitive with power unit tricks. Red Bull got competitive when Honda made a big step.

Mercedes' aero was maybe good, but the power unit, with power and reliability(!), made the difference compared to the other teams

[Henri]

All during the greenwashing era, though--not an insignificant detail. Brackley only found success after the engine formula change in 2014; their power unit was the source of their record. As engine parity has been achieved over time, their leads diminished. Parity is such that even Audi are now considering entering the sport.

They weren't known for being aero leaders compared to RB for example, who won their titles prior to 2014 when aero was more critical, and engines were at closer to parity. As parity sets in again RB and Ferrari rise back in the ranks. That RB were able to keep up while using the early Renault PUs says something about the level of their chassis and aero work. Merc cars' aero usually had a bit of a design by brute force computation look to them. Staff size and money do not necessarily equate to good design leadership, so it's possible they could be barking up the wrong tree with these anhedral sidepods.

Had FIA stays against stays remained stayed they might be looking even less staid than what's already been displayed.

engine is not far ahead for years now, still they managed to get those titles except last year.
Even when ferrari cheated with their engine, they won the title and they had years when they were absolutely the best team aero wise, dominating in monaco as example.

I mean come one. 8 titles are 8 titles. they even came out on top on the last rule change what no one else did before.

Exactly, people want to live in make believe narratives even when Mercedes themselves have said that they misdirected the attention to the engine when the real innovation was suspension and aero.

And people still fall for it.. they think merc has crap chassis and only won because of the engine lol... merc built the w11 the fastest car in f1 history i trust their aero team

[Henri]

Mercedes launched the narrative that it was not the engine last year, don't fall for it. Their advantage always reduced on circuits that were not power sensitive. Ferrari got competitive with power unit tricks. Red Bull got competitive when Honda made a big step.

Mercedes' aero was maybe good, but the power unit, with power and reliability(!), made the difference compared to the other teams

Ferrari aren't on Mercedes level chassis wise..

[Zynerji]

Mercedes launched the narrative that it was not the engine last year, don't fall for it. Their advantage always reduced on circuits that were not power sensitive. Ferrari got competitive with power unit tricks. Red Bull got competitive when Honda made a big step.

Mercedes' aero was maybe good, but the power unit, with power and reliability(!), made the difference compared to the other teams

Ferrari aren't on Mercedes level chassis wise..

Mercedes real strength was the hydraulic suspension. Gone for 2022, and hurting them badly!

[AR3-GP]

All during the greenwashing era, though--not an insignificant detail. Brackley only found success after the engine formula change in 2014; their power unit was the source of their record. As engine parity has been achieved over time, their leads diminished. Parity is such that even Audi are now considering entering the sport.

They weren't known for being aero leaders compared to RB for example, who won their titles prior to 2014 when aero was more critical, and engines were at closer to parity. As parity sets in again RB and Ferrari rise back in the ranks. That RB were able to keep up while using the early Renault PUs says something about the level of their chassis and aero work. Merc cars' aero usually had a bit of a design by brute force computation look to them. Staff size and money do not necessarily equate to good design leadership, so it's possible they could be barking up the wrong tree with these anhedral sidepods.

Had FIA stays against stays remained stayed they might be looking even less staid than what's already been displayed.

engine is not far ahead for years now, still they managed to get those titles except last year.
Even when ferrari cheated with their engine, they won the title and they had years when they were absolutely the best team aero wise, dominating in monaco as example.

I mean come one. 8 titles are 8 titles. they even came out on top on the last rule change what no one else did before.

Exactly, people want to live in make believe narratives even when Mercedes themselves have said that they misdirected the attention to the engine when the real innovation was suspension and aero.

Mercedes didn't fool anyone as to where their performance advantages were. It was literally right there in the GPS data how well they were doing in the corners.

[nimoraca]

Mercedes of 2011 is not Mercedes of 2021. The false narrative that RB builds the best chassis is just that false narrative. Given how big a regulation change this was, there is always a risk that you might have missed something. Remember RedBull in 2020. They were miles of the pace, all down to the chassis. They managed to crawl their way back, but the championship was lost. Mercedes might do something similar, but might loose the championship. Lets also not forget that they have the least amount of wind tunnel and CFD time, an artificial constraint introduced to hamper them, that is only chassis related.

[dialtone]

Mercedes of 2011 is not Mercedes of 2021. The false narrative that RB builds the best chassis is just that false narrative. Given how big a regulation change this was, there is always a risk that you might have missed something. Remember RedBull in 2020. They were miles of the pace, all down to the chassis. They managed to crawl their way back, but the championship was lost. Mercedes might do something similar, but might loose the championship. Lets also not forget that they have the least amount of wind tunnel and CFD time, an artificial constraint introduced to hamper them, that is only chassis related.

They will have the most wind tunnel time in July which is before half season, at which point they'll have the most out of the top 3 teams if things stay like this. The difference between the top 3 teams in wind tunnel time is relatively small, as mentioned by Wolff being worth about 0.2s at most, if you are really good at organizing your time when you are there, Binotto said it's worth about 0.1s. Rather than complaining about the wind tunnel time allocation conspiracy, if I were you, I would first look at entirely throwing away the first week of testing in Barcelona, because they lost 50% of that time rather than 10% less time in the wind tunnel, which is roughly a work week on it.

After that first week of testing they could have prepared some different rear/beam wing configuration to test, or a handful of floors (Ferrari tested 5), or very different suspension/tyre setups if not even starting to design a new suspension 2 weeks earlier.

[Just_a_fan]

As I said it already in this thread in the past, in my opinion any commentary that assumes Merc isn't smart, or hasn't thought of something obvious, is likely wrong or simplifying the problem too much. It should be obvious to assume that a team that won 8 WCCs in a row is stacked,

All during the greenwashing era, though--not an insignificant detail. Brackley only found success after the engine formula change in 2014; their power unit was the source of their record. As engine parity has been achieved over time, their leads diminished. Parity is such that even Audi are now considering entering the sport.

They weren't known for being aero leaders compared to RB for example, who won their titles prior to 2014 when aero was more critical, and engines were at closer to parity. As parity sets in again RB and Ferrari rise back in the ranks. That RB were able to keep up while using the early Renault PUs says something about the level of their chassis and aero work. Merc cars' aero usually had a bit of a design by brute force computation look to them. Staff size and money do not necessarily equate to good design leadership, so it's possible they could be barking up the wrong tree with these anhedral sidepods.

Had FIA stays against stays remained stayed they might be looking even less staid than what's already been displayed.

Wow, talk about revisionism. RB won because their engine supplier - who they later very publicly rubbished - gave them an ICE that provided the diffuser blowing (both hot and then later cold) that gave them an aero edge.

To claim that RB's earlier successes were purely aero is to, basically, lie.

As for the last sentence, bravo. Lovely play on words. Rubbish, but lovely.

[f1jcw]

I sense a old user with a new login

[silver]

As I said it already in this thread in the past, in my opinion any commentary that assumes Merc isn't smart, or hasn't thought of something obvious, is likely wrong or simplifying the problem too much. It should be obvious to assume that a team that won 8 WCCs in a row is stacked,

All during the greenwashing era, though--not an insignificant detail. Brackley only found success after the engine formula change in 2014; their power unit was the source of their record. As engine parity has been achieved over time, their leads diminished. Parity is such that even Audi are now considering entering the sport.

They weren't known for being aero leaders compared to RB for example, who won their titles prior to 2014 when aero was more critical, and engines were at closer to parity. As parity sets in again RB and Ferrari rise back in the ranks. That RB were able to keep up while using the early Renault PUs says something about the level of their chassis and aero work. Merc cars' aero usually had a bit of a design by brute force computation look to them. Staff size and money do not necessarily equate to good design leadership, so it's possible they could be barking up the wrong tree with these anhedral sidepods.

Had FIA stays against stays remained stayed they might be looking even less staid than what's already been displayed.

Wow, talk about revisionism. RB won because their engine supplier - who they later very publicly rubbished - gave them an ICE that provided the diffuser blowing (both hot and then later cold) that gave them an aero edge.

To claim that RB's earlier successes were purely aero is to, basically, lie.

As for the last sentence, bravo. Lovely play on words. Rubbish, but lovely.

If memory serves right, Mercedes V8 engine had 50hp more than Renault. The difference was Renault was configured to keep revving up even when no throttle to blow the diffuser aka off throttle blowing. A feature built to the aero design. But even then Newey wanted Mercedes engines and Brawn was blocking it. Renault engine was there on Renault cars too but without the aero strength those cars were not just as potent. Those Renault cars were designed to treat the early generation of Pirellis well while everyone else was struggling from high degradation, a feature which was at its worst on Mercedes cars.

[matteosc]

I think we are getting "slightly" out of topic here...

[pursue_one's]