2022 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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mrluke
mrluke
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Joined: 22 Nov 2013, 20:31

Re: 2022 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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Gillian wrote:
07 Apr 2022, 12:22
JordanMugen wrote:
07 Apr 2022, 11:50
f1jcw wrote:
07 Apr 2022, 10:47


There is no evidence for this either way beyond your own personal beliefi that Redbull must be better then everything else chassis wise.
Mercedes never agreed the customer Mercedes HPP supply which Red Bull Racing were shopping for from 2016, so we can't really tell. :)

But certainly Mercedes GP are a fine chassis builder with their insistence on a successful a low-rake approach. They gave up the extra diffuser volume & extra angle of attack, which 8-9 of the other teams preferred to run, and they defeated them with low-rake. =D>
Indeed so but why would Mercedes not supply Red Bull if not for their fear of how competitive they would be with the same engine?

Sure it's all conjecture.
Because there would be no good outcome for Mercedes.

If red bull win it will be because of all the hard work redbull have done their chassis

If Mercedes win it will be because they have a superior engine and gave redbull a tuned down version.

Why would you sign up to that?

Just_a_fan
Just_a_fan
593
Joined: 31 Jan 2010, 20:37

Re: 2022 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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mrluke wrote:
07 Apr 2022, 14:54
Gillian wrote:
07 Apr 2022, 12:22
JordanMugen wrote:
07 Apr 2022, 11:50


Mercedes never agreed the customer Mercedes HPP supply which Red Bull Racing were shopping for from 2016, so we can't really tell. :)

But certainly Mercedes GP are a fine chassis builder with their insistence on a successful a low-rake approach. They gave up the extra diffuser volume & extra angle of attack, which 8-9 of the other teams preferred to run, and they defeated them with low-rake. =D>
Indeed so but why would Mercedes not supply Red Bull if not for their fear of how competitive they would be with the same engine?

Sure it's all conjecture.
Because there would be no good outcome for Mercedes.

If red bull win it will be because of all the hard work redbull have done their chassis

If Mercedes win it will be because they have a superior engine and gave redbull a tuned down version.

Why would you sign up to that?
Ultimately, Mercedes invested a huge amount of resource in developing that PU. Red Bull did nothing other than slag off their PU supplier whilst doing nothing to develop their own PU. Why would Mercedes want to give up that resource to a competitor? Answer: They wouldn't. No one would.

We had Horner calling Mercedes cowards in his usual way of doing things. Was that supposed to change Mercedes's mind or was it school yard insults because he didn't get his own way. Well, we know the answer to that one too.
If you are more fortunate than others, build a larger table not a taller fence.

mrluke
mrluke
33
Joined: 22 Nov 2013, 20:31

Re: 2022 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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Just_a_fan wrote:
07 Apr 2022, 14:58
mrluke wrote:
07 Apr 2022, 14:54
Gillian wrote:
07 Apr 2022, 12:22


Indeed so but why would Mercedes not supply Red Bull if not for their fear of how competitive they would be with the same engine?

Sure it's all conjecture.
Because there would be no good outcome for Mercedes.

If red bull win it will be because of all the hard work redbull have done their chassis

If Mercedes win it will be because they have a superior engine and gave redbull a tuned down version.

Why would you sign up to that?
Ultimately, Mercedes invested a huge amount of resource in developing that PU. Red Bull did nothing other than slag off their PU supplier whilst doing nothing to develop their own PU. Why would Mercedes want to give up that resource to a competitor? Answer: They wouldn't. No one would.

We had Horner calling Mercedes cowards in his usual way of doing things. Was that supposed to change Mercedes's mind or was it school yard insults because he didn't get his own way. Well, we know the answer to that one too.
we're on the same page, sorry if my post was badly worded.

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NicoS
-2
Joined: 11 Feb 2022, 17:21

Re: 2022 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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Fans starting to ask probing questions!
https://twitter.com/the_staveros/status ... MyqJbpyc7Q

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dans79
267
Joined: 03 Mar 2013, 19:33
Location: USA

Re: 2022 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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Gillian wrote:
07 Apr 2022, 12:22
Indeed so but why would Mercedes not supply Red Bull if not for their fear of how competitive they would be with the same engine?
Because they Don't like them!
201 105 104 9 9 7

Gillian
Gillian
0
Joined: 27 May 2021, 21:46

Re: 2022 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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dans79 wrote:
07 Apr 2022, 16:11
Gillian wrote:
07 Apr 2022, 12:22
Indeed so but why would Mercedes not supply Red Bull if not for their fear of how competitive they would be with the same engine?
Because they Don't like them!
Sure but that works both ways right? Let them pay for your engine and then still beat them. Would have proven they are better in every single way would it not?

Anyway I remember why I stopped posting here. So much hostility (not you Dans). Have a good weekend.

f1jcw
f1jcw
17
Joined: 21 Feb 2019, 21:15

Re: 2022 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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Gillian wrote:
07 Apr 2022, 17:03
dans79 wrote:
07 Apr 2022, 16:11
Gillian wrote:
07 Apr 2022, 12:22
Indeed so but why would Mercedes not supply Red Bull if not for their fear of how competitive they would be with the same engine?
Because they Don't like them!
Sure but that works both ways right? Let them pay for your engine and then still beat them. Would have proven they are better in every single way would it not?

Anyway I remember why I stopped posting here. So much hostility (not you Dans). Have a good weekend.
Why do you think they have anything to prove and to who.

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Zynerji
110
Joined: 27 Jan 2016, 16:14

Re: 2022 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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Just_a_fan wrote:
07 Apr 2022, 14:58
mrluke wrote:
07 Apr 2022, 14:54
Gillian wrote:
07 Apr 2022, 12:22


Indeed so but why would Mercedes not supply Red Bull if not for their fear of how competitive they would be with the same engine?

Sure it's all conjecture.
Because there would be no good outcome for Mercedes.

If red bull win it will be because of all the hard work redbull have done their chassis

If Mercedes win it will be because they have a superior engine and gave redbull a tuned down version.

Why would you sign up to that?
Ultimately, Mercedes invested a huge amount of resource in developing that PU. Red Bull did nothing other than slag off their PU supplier whilst doing nothing to develop their own PU. Why would Mercedes want to give up that resource to a competitor? Answer: They wouldn't. No one would.

We had Horner calling Mercedes cowards in his usual way of doing things. Was that supposed to change Mercedes's mind or was it school yard insults because he didn't get his own way. Well, we know the answer to that one too.
IIRC, RBR did a TON of in-house development on the Renault v8's... :?:

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vorticism
323
Joined: 01 Mar 2022, 20:20

Re: 2022 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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Just_a_fan wrote:
06 Apr 2022, 23:27
vorticism wrote:
06 Apr 2022, 19:39
dialtone wrote:
06 Apr 2022, 19:11
As I said it already in this thread in the past, in my opinion any commentary that assumes Merc isn't smart, or hasn't thought of something obvious, is likely wrong or simplifying the problem too much. It should be obvious to assume that a team that won 8 WCCs in a row is stacked,
All during the greenwashing era, though--not an insignificant detail. Brackley only found success after the engine formula change in 2014; their power unit was the source of their record. As engine parity has been achieved over time, their leads diminished. Parity is such that even Audi are now considering entering the sport.

They weren't known for being aero leaders compared to RB for example, who won their titles prior to 2014 when aero was more critical, and engines were at closer to parity. As parity sets in again RB and Ferrari rise back in the ranks. That RB were able to keep up while using the early Renault PUs says something about the level of their chassis and aero work. Merc cars' aero usually had a bit of a design by brute force computation look to them. Staff size and money do not necessarily equate to good design leadership, so it's possible they could be barking up the wrong tree with these anhedral sidepods.

Had FIA stays against stays remained stayed they might be looking even less staid than what's already been displayed.
Wow, talk about revisionism. RB won because their engine supplier - who they later very publicly rubbished - gave them an ICE that provided the diffuser blowing (both hot and then later cold) that gave them an aero edge.

To claim that RB's earlier successes were purely aero is to, basically, lie.

As for the last sentence, bravo. Lovely play on words. Rubbish, but lovely.
Revisionist only if you never understood the original book. Things happen for a reason. There was a train of RB titles, followed by a train of Mercedes titles. Both happened for reasons that are understood by the seasoned Netflix eschewers. Before those, a train of Ferrari titles. So on and so forth.

RB had the aero formula worked out best heading into the 2009 change. Merc had the engine formula worked out heading into 2014.

If I say RB were victorious due to their aero and chassis, no one bats an eye. No one claims Vettel was carrying Newey on his back. If I say Merc were victorious because they had the most powerful/dependable engine in a clean sheet engine formula, I get a train of racist anti-racists playing the race card. (Most powerful engine for most of the seasons, and most dependable for all 8 seasons; this is not an insult of course and the Merc engineers shouldn't have been thrown under the bus for their ingenuity by the bandwagon.)

With engine development frozen and performance equalizing (although reliability trends are yet to be seen) and a new aero formula on the books, we see aero coming back to the fore. Guess who's back near the top?
𓄀

Just_a_fan
Just_a_fan
593
Joined: 31 Jan 2010, 20:37

Re: 2022 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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Zynerji wrote:
07 Apr 2022, 17:07
Just_a_fan wrote:
07 Apr 2022, 14:58
mrluke wrote:
07 Apr 2022, 14:54


Because there would be no good outcome for Mercedes.

If red bull win it will be because of all the hard work redbull have done their chassis

If Mercedes win it will be because they have a superior engine and gave redbull a tuned down version.

Why would you sign up to that?
Ultimately, Mercedes invested a huge amount of resource in developing that PU. Red Bull did nothing other than slag off their PU supplier whilst doing nothing to develop their own PU. Why would Mercedes want to give up that resource to a competitor? Answer: They wouldn't. No one would.

We had Horner calling Mercedes cowards in his usual way of doing things. Was that supposed to change Mercedes's mind or was it school yard insults because he didn't get his own way. Well, we know the answer to that one too.
IIRC, RBR did a TON of in-house development on the Renault v8's... :?:
But they didn't develop an entirely new PU for the new regs as Mercedes did, did they? That's the point.

I've never understood the argument by some that Mercedes should have given Red Bull the Merc PU. As Red Bull said in the preceding years - if you want to beat us, work harder. Mercedes did work harder - and they developed the class-of-the-field PU. A PU that some seemed to feel that Red Bull were entitled to demand. My response to that is "work harder if you want to beat Mercedes. Oh, you haven't bothered investing in an entire PU department? Oh well.". Even now, they've basically skipped the hard yards bit of the PU development and have dropped straight in to a top end PU thanks to Honda's weird decision to leave.

Of course, it wasn't all just the PU that made Mercedes winners in the hybrid era - if it was, Williams wouldn't have been propping up the results tables year in, year out. But that's a different discussion.
If you are more fortunate than others, build a larger table not a taller fence.

silver
silver
5
Joined: 23 Feb 2021, 06:50

Re: 2022 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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Just_a_fan wrote:
07 Apr 2022, 17:27
Zynerji wrote:
07 Apr 2022, 17:07
Just_a_fan wrote:
07 Apr 2022, 14:58

Ultimately, Mercedes invested a huge amount of resource in developing that PU. Red Bull did nothing other than slag off their PU supplier whilst doing nothing to develop their own PU. Why would Mercedes want to give up that resource to a competitor? Answer: They wouldn't. No one would.

We had Horner calling Mercedes cowards in his usual way of doing things. Was that supposed to change Mercedes's mind or was it school yard insults because he didn't get his own way. Well, we know the answer to that one too.
IIRC, RBR did a TON of in-house development on the Renault v8's... :?:
But they didn't develop an entirely new PU for the new regs as Mercedes did, did they? That's the point.

I've never understood the argument by some that Mercedes should have given Red Bull the Merc PU. As Red Bull said in the preceding years - if you want to beat us, work harder. Mercedes did work harder - and they developed the class-of-the-field PU. A PU that some seemed to feel that Red Bull were entitled to demand. My response to that is "work harder if you want to beat Mercedes. Oh, you haven't bothered investing in an entire PU department? Oh well.". Even now, they've basically skipped the hard yards bit of the PU development and have dropped straight in to a top end PU thanks to Honda's weird decision to leave.

Of course, it wasn't all just the PU that made Mercedes winners in the hybrid era - if it was, Williams wouldn't have been propping up the results tables year in, year out. But that's a different discussion.
There are two POVs here. Mercedes F1 team (co owned by Daimler) and the Mercedes engine supplier (fully owned by Daimler). It was in the best interest of the Mercedes co-owned F1 team to not provide engines to Red Bull which is one POV. The other is from fully owned Mercedes HPP perspective, where, regardless of whether Mercedes F1 team wins or Red Bull wins, the engine supplier would still get the same credit. Daimler were happy to be engine supplier to McLaren and be their title sponsor until Norbert Haug convinced Daimler to also own an F1 team. Even in the early years, while the race team suffered, the engine division was still a marquee with McLaren success. So the F1 team idea was an afterthought, but primary purpose was being the engine supplier.

It might yet again happen at some point when Daimler (now Mercedes-Benz AG) would depart from the race team and focus on being engine supplier if the success of F1 team diminishes. They are anyway one part owner of the three parties and INEOS might own majority stakes or someone else might find it interesting to venture into F1 and buy Mercedes stakes. Continuing as an engine supplier like they always did since 90s, would still be a great platform for marketing and with that, any team that achieves success would be good for Mercedes-Benz AG. From that perspective, having had Red Bull would have still given the much needed marketing presence for their brand.

Henri
Henri
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Joined: 14 Jan 2022, 10:58

Re: 2022 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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Why would Mercedes supply a drinks company with their engine.. merc is a car constructor with racing heritage while redbull is a drinks company as lewis said 😉

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chrisc90
41
Joined: 23 Feb 2022, 21:22

Re: 2022 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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Henri wrote:
07 Apr 2022, 20:29
Why would Mercedes supply a drinks company with their engine.. merc is a car constructor with racing heritage while redbull is a drinks company as lewis said 😉
Pretty awkward when a drinks company can bring a huge challenge to a car constructor with racing heritage. At the moment, a drinks company is beating a car manufacturer!
Mess with the Bull - you get the horns.

AR3-GP
AR3-GP
365
Joined: 06 Jul 2021, 01:22

Re: 2022 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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Henri wrote:
07 Apr 2022, 20:29
Why would Mercedes supply a drinks company with their engine.. merc is a car constructor with racing heritage while redbull is a drinks company as lewis said 😉
They once supplied Vijay Mallya :wink:
A lion must kill its prey.

Ferry
Ferry
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Joined: 24 Mar 2012, 15:43

Re: 2022 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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chrisc90 wrote:
07 Apr 2022, 21:44
Pretty awkward when a drinks company can bring a huge challenge to a car constructor with racing heritage. At the moment, a drinks company is beating a car manufacturer!
A big company doing that is one thing. But I remember some years ago a man called Brawn did it all by himself. :wink: