Mercedes W13

[zubster]

Ordinary and uninteresting floor.

https://f1i.autojournal.fr/wp-content/u ... _w13_5.jpg

Just been comparing the redbull side by side and it is crazy the difference. Clearly need a lot of development work to be done here. You think that new floor coming in Imola, will make a big difference?

[F1Krof]

Ordinary and uninteresting floor.

https://f1i.autojournal.fr/wp-content/u ... _w13_5.jpg

Just been comparing the redbull side by side and it is crazy the difference. Clearly need a lot of development work to be done here. You think that new floor coming in Imola, will make a big difference?

I highly doubt it. To me it looks like they have a bundle of problems, it's not just the porposing. I think the porpoising is just the end effect, it is not in itself causing other problems. As somebody mentioned here, look at Ferrari, they do seem to have porposing but they still manage to go fast. Same with Red Bull but to lesser extent.

[AA_2019]

Today... Hamilton: ‘Nothing we change on the car makes a difference’

Merc have little understanding of the problem, the midfield are developing and will overtake Merc at this rate.

Everyone will have a big update in the next two races so the season could be over in just a few races.

It reminds me of Mclaren in 2009, they persisted with their stupid inwash concept whilst Brawn GP were 2 secs faster a lap. Only half way through the season did they change to Brawn's outwash.

Hope Merc don't make a similar self deluded error... The sims are saying it should be fast yet on track they are slow. Get your heads out of the computer screens and copy what works on track.

[Vanja #66]

Today... Hamilton: ‘Nothing we change on the car makes a difference’

To me things/problems look more and more suspension related. Aero problems are just a consequence.

[mkay]

Ordinary and uninteresting floor.

https://f1i.autojournal.fr/wp-content/u ... _w13_5.jpg

Just been comparing the redbull side by side and it is crazy the difference. Clearly need a lot of development work to be done here. You think that new floor coming in Imola, will make a big difference?

I highly doubt it. To me it looks like they have a bundle of problems, it's not just the porposing. I think the porpoising is just the end effect, it is not in itself causing other problems. As somebody mentioned here, look at Ferrari, they do seem to have porposing but they still manage to go fast. Same with Red Bull but to lesser extent.

Ferrari's floor is running much closer to the ground than Merc's despite porpoising. Suggests to me Merc's main issue is suspension-related.

[AA_2019]

Looking at it with the naked eye they need the Red Bull Suspension secrets.

Merc are too busy trying to adapt their models to try to create purposing in the sims, but that will take too long I fear.

[mclaren111]

Look at the steering wheel wobbles! I think this is madness and truly dangerous to drive this car!
How on Earth can he handle it???



In addition, Paul di Resta said on Sky Sports F1 that another reason they must raise the ride height for a few millimetres is for not wearing too much of the car's wood plank and also for a general obvious reason at this stage of the championship: car`s reliability ...

He's paid $50 Million a year to handle it...

Change the setup and make it better even if it means being slower...

[Big Tea]

Today... Hamilton: ‘Nothing we change on the car makes a difference’

To me things/problems look more and more suspension related. Aero problems are just a consequence.

I was reading ( don't recall where I think F1 site ) Ant saying the car on track has little similarity to the performance in the sim. where it is performing very well. But does not 'simulate' the proposing. Looks like they are lost, and they say if you are lost, find out where you are before you run off on a random direction.
Seems good advice, especially with the cap

[Andi76]

Ordinary and uninteresting floor.

https://f1i.autojournal.fr/wp-content/u ... _w13_5.jpg

Just been comparing the redbull side by side and it is crazy the difference. Clearly need a lot of development work to be done here. You think that new floor coming in Imola, will make a big difference?

I highly doubt it. To me it looks like they have a bundle of problems, it's not just the porposing. I think the porpoising is just the end effect, it is not in itself causing other problems. As somebody mentioned here, look at Ferrari, they do seem to have porposing but they still manage to go fast. Same with Red Bull but to lesser extent.

Ralf Schumacher just said that the Mercedes engine is about 0.5 secs a lap slower. The ICE seems to be the problem. But thats only a small part of all their problems, as this car has so many problems...i still think the "Zero/Micro"-Sidepod Concept was just the totally wrong way to go with this set of rules. In my opinion the front-wheel-wake is not managed properly. Also, with this concept, Mercedes is lacking the pressurisation zone under the sidepod-inlet. Ferrari is the perfect example here,
and this seems to have an influence
on underfloor performance. Its not a coincident that almost all the teams with a different concept than "micro/zero-sidepods" are doing well, while the teams with "micro-zero"-sidepod concepts are doing bad. So the sidepod/aero-concept certainly has something to do with the good/bad performance of the teams. Also i think its a better solution to let the rear/beamwing assembly drive the floor than leading more air over the top of the diffusor and drive the diffusor that way. In my opinion their whole concept is wrong and they cannot change it this season. Also their suspension geometry is very different to Ferrari and Red Bull i think, so they probably missed something here, too. So its engine, aero, suspension - just to many problems and i think all the problems interact with each other. And they will need a lot of time to even improve just a little. If your whole concept is wrong, its hard to improve. But thats only my assumptions and opinions. But one thing is for sure :

At the end of the day the design of a F1 Car is about trade-offs and compromises. And Mercedes, i think its fair to say this now, has done a horrible job in that regard. But anyway - its easy to make mistakes with your concept. You just need to make a mistake with your downforce/drag ratio and you go down the wrong road with your concept. Ferrari made the same mistake after years of domination. In 2005. And i think, as Ferrari did in 2006, Mercedes will be competitive next year. And we will see three teams fighting for the Championship.

[Big Tea]

Just been comparing the redbull side by side and it is crazy the difference. Clearly need a lot of development work to be done here. You think that new floor coming in Imola, will make a big difference?

I highly doubt it. To me it looks like they have a bundle of problems, it's not just the porposing. I think the porpoising is just the end effect, it is not in itself causing other problems. As somebody mentioned here, look at Ferrari, they do seem to have porposing but they still manage to go fast. Same with Red Bull but to lesser extent.

Ralf Schumacher just said that the Mercedes engine is about 0.5 secs a lap slower. The ICE seems to be the problem. But thats only a small part of all their problems, as this car has so many problems...i still think the "Zero/Micro"-Sidepod Concept was just the totally wrong way to go with this set of rules. In my opinion the front-wheel-wake is not managed properly. Also, with this concept, Mercedes is lacking the pressurisation zone under the sidepod-inlet. Ferrari is the perfect example here,
and this seems to have an influence
on underfloor performance. Its not a coincident that almost all the teams with a different concept than "micro/zero-sidepods" are doing well, while the teams with "micro-zero"-sidepod concepts are doing bad. So the sidepod/aero-concept certainly has something to do with the good/bad performance of the teams. Also i think its a better solution to let the rear/beamwing assembly drive the floor than leading more air over the top of the diffusor and drive the diffusor that way. In my opinion their whole concept is wrong and they cannot change it this season. Also their suspension geometry is very different to Ferrari and Red Bull i think, so they probably missed something here, too. So its engine, aero, suspension - just to many problems and i think all the problems interact with each other. And they will need a lot of time to even improve just a little. If your whole concept is wrong, its hard to improve. But thats only my assumptions and opinions. But one thing is for sure :

At the end of the day the design of a F1 Car is about trade-offs and compromises. And Mercedes, i think its fair to say this now, has done a horrible job in that regard. But anyway - its easy to make mistakes with your concept. Ferrari made the same mistake after years of domination. In 2005. And i think, as Ferrari did in 2006, Mercedes will be competitive next year. And we will see three teams fighting for the Championship.

I follow what you are saying, but if they had designed the car with huge sidepods and all the 'grubbing's' in them, and it was found small was the right answer they would be backed into a corner. As it seems large is the way to go, and they have small, they can add whatever is needed as most of it can be space if they must.

[mantikos]

Today... Hamilton: ‘Nothing we change on the car makes a difference’

To me things/problems look more and more suspension related. Aero problems are just a consequence.

Agree - they're struggling without hydraulics. Suspension is the main issue.

[Just_a_fan]

It's worth pointing out that this car, with all of its problems, is still basically the third fastest car on the grid. Yes, it's way behind the Ferrari and Red Bull cars, but it's not as if it's driving around 3 seconds off the pace at the back of the grid.

Will the W13 win the title this year? No, I don't think it's got a chance. Is it likely to end up with Mercedes being third in the constructor table? Yes, very probably.

[Big Tea]

It's worth pointing out that this car, with all of its problems, is still basically the third fastest car on the grid. Yes, it's way behind the Ferrari and Red Bull cars, but it's not as if it's driving around 3 seconds off the pace at the back of the grid.

Will the W13 win the title this year? No, I don't think it's got a chance. Is it likely to end up with Mercedes being third in the constructor table? Yes, very probably.

I mentioned in another thread that Ant, the sim driver says the sim performance is way above what is actually attainable on the track. If (BIG IF) it turns out to be a small error of correlation that is an easy fix once they find it, I see them as still ion with a shout as they are way behind in development and have more to bring on then the leaders.

Then again, it may be decided that this year is a dead loss and develop for next wear out of this years budget.

[Andi76]

I highly doubt it. To me it looks like they have a bundle of problems, it's not just the porposing. I think the porpoising is just the end effect, it is not in itself causing other problems. As somebody mentioned here, look at Ferrari, they do seem to have porposing but they still manage to go fast. Same with Red Bull but to lesser extent.

Ralf Schumacher just said that the Mercedes engine is about 0.5 secs a lap slower. The ICE seems to be the problem. But thats only a small part of all their problems, as this car has so many problems...i still think the "Zero/Micro"-Sidepod Concept was just the totally wrong way to go with this set of rules. In my opinion the front-wheel-wake is not managed properly. Also, with this concept, Mercedes is lacking the pressurisation zone under the sidepod-inlet. Ferrari is the perfect example here,
and this seems to have an influence
on underfloor performance. Its not a coincident that almost all the teams with a different concept than "micro/zero-sidepods" are doing well, while the teams with "micro-zero"-sidepod concepts are doing bad. So the sidepod/aero-concept certainly has something to do with the good/bad performance of the teams. Also i think its a better solution to let the rear/beamwing assembly drive the floor than leading more air over the top of the diffusor and drive the diffusor that way. In my opinion their whole concept is wrong and they cannot change it this season. Also their suspension geometry is very different to Ferrari and Red Bull i think, so they probably missed something here, too. So its engine, aero, suspension - just to many problems and i think all the problems interact with each other. And they will need a lot of time to even improve just a little. If your whole concept is wrong, its hard to improve. But thats only my assumptions and opinions. But one thing is for sure :

At the end of the day the design of a F1 Car is about trade-offs and compromises. And Mercedes, i think its fair to say this now, has done a horrible job in that regard. But anyway - its easy to make mistakes with your concept. Ferrari made the same mistake after years of domination. In 2005. And i think, as Ferrari did in 2006, Mercedes will be competitive next year. And we will see three teams fighting for the Championship.

I follow what you are saying, but if they had designed the car with huge sidepods and all the 'grubbing's' in them, and it was found small was the right answer they would be backed into a corner. As it seems large is the way to go, and they have small, they can add whatever is needed as most of it can be space if they must.

They cannot copy them completely. They can go big, but thats only one thing. They cannot copy the pressurisation-zone under the inlet of the sidepods. So they could just copy 50% of these sidepods and i highly doubt that would help. It also would hurt them elsewhere, because their whole aero-philosophy is different. So they literally would have to design a new car...So its not that easy....this would be a massive operation that affords a lot of windtunnel and cfd work! In times where its limited....

And you say "IF SMALL...- they would be backed into a corner" - sorry but they got it wrong. You could also say "if Ferrari in 2020..." - but what they did was wrong. Their car was horrible. They did a bad job. The same applies to Mercedes this year. If things would be like you say, no one would ever do anything wrong and never do a bad job. But that has nothing to do with reality, how things really are and work.

[KAIZEN]

Ordinary and uninteresting floor.

https://f1i.autojournal.fr/wp-content/u ... _w13_5.jpg

Flat and long low pressure zone.
Stalls occur with high probability.
The body above it has a large high pressure zone that encourages it.

Suspension technology is lagging behind, but one-point-focused aerodynamics is also a problem.

viewtopic.php?t=30329

Is it possible to create a front downforce with such a fence and front floor?

It will be difficult.