Mercedes W13

[matteosc]

And Ferrari still has no radiators up there. Lower than RB does not mean much, since the whole conversation started with Ferrari/Mercedes COG.

Looking at this thread seems like Mercedes has the lowest center of gravity, the higher downforce levels and the best engine. Weird, considering track performance.

Yet they are not so far off, and reliability counts in this formula, they've excelled with that since 2014. I do wonder if porpoising is over emphasized. It seems to only occur at high speeds on straights, so it would seem the only drawback is driver comfort.

All told, if you factor in that the Ferrari sidepod radiators are more horizontal, and therefore lifted up off the floor to fit them, compared to Merc, with their more vertical sidepod radiators that are wider at the base and fitted all the way to the floor, they may not be so far off from each other. There are some images out there of the Merc sidepod radiators, they are barely a four inches wide at the top maybe.

I really disagree with your opinion. Also I think they are pretty far off, given that according to their simulation they should be 1.5 seconds faster than they are on track.

[vorticism]

It's glowing titanium. The keel springboards don't have central holes through them, and the planks don't seem to have central holes near the front edge, which is occupied by a titanium block.The titanium is mounted on a low thermal conductivity material, and the other side of it is exposed to low thermal conductivity gas (nitrogen at 1 bar), while having a minimal surface area to volume ratio.

The pro-light bulb crowd must explain where the light bulb is to be situated, and whether or not the sensor is mounted to the sprung mass, and where the orifice on the sprung mass is, and why the aforementioned light bulb would be intermittently used. Partial data collection would make no sense if you have a whole lap available to study. Also, why use an orange LED? Surely it's not an incandecent filament bulb. Incandescent titanium maybe. But likely not incandescent tungsten.

[OO7]

vorticism, you make some interesting points, but the 2021 Saudi footage is very compelling. The light literally only turns on in the braking zone, despite the car sparking all the way through that curve to T27, which must have been for around 10 seconds, perhaps even longer if you include the high speed section between T17 and T22.

Compare the times in the footage below and it can be seen that in the 0.5 seconds between the two stills, the bib has gone from having no glow at all despite all the sparking and grounding through that high speed section, to have a very bright, constant glow while braking:

[CMSMJ1]

To try and put this polarisation relating to the lights/friction to bed. I have also seen these on the MotoGP bikes. A quick look in the internet and I have a lovely opportunity for you.



A picture of the same device fitted to another device that does not scrape along the floor. Also posted from one of our own people who, I am sure, the majority would trust and reference for accuracy.

As per @scarbs - "speed over ground" sensor?

The last few pages have been good to read and I enjoyed this last 30 mins catching up in this thread! Now, can we talk about W13 please?

[AA_2019]

Russell fears that deficit may continue to grow in the coming races.

“unfortunately there’s nothing substantial in the pipeline anytime soon,” he said when asked if Mercedes had any upgrades coming for Imola. “It’s not going to happen overnight, it’s going to take a number of races.

“I think there’ll be little things, there’ll be incremental steps but we recognise that our rivals are going to be doing the same so it may not be clear to the outside world that we’ve made progress because Ferrari and Red Bull are going to be making progress as well.”

Also...

Alpine are coming with a new floor for Imola which makes it likely Merc will be fighting for p7 / p8 at best

Hope Mercs low DF rear wing comes to Imola

[PlatinumZealot]

It's glowing titanium. The keel springboards don't have central holes through them, and the planks don't seem to have central holes near the front edge, which is occupied by a titanium block.The titanium is mounted on a low thermal conductivity material, and the other side of it is exposed to low thermal conductivity gas (nitrogen at 1 bar), while having a minimal surface area to volume ratio.

The pro-light bulb crowd must explain where the light bulb is to be situated, and whether or not the sensor is mounted to the sprung mass, and where the orifice on the sprung mass is, and why the aforementioned light bulb would be intermittently used. Partial data collection would make no sense if you have a whole lap available to study. Also, why use an orange LED? Surely it's not an incandecent filament bulb. Incandescent titanium maybe. But likely not incandescent tungsten.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FP5HeKOXoAI ... name=large
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FP5HeliXsAc ... me=900x900

https://i.imgur.com/pwYc0BH.jpg

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FODm88FXMAk ... name=large

https://cdn-1.motorsport.com/images/amp ... -deta.webp

https://www.linkpicture.com/q/mercedes-w12-detail-1.jpg

Glowing titanium?!! Glowing titanium?! By simple abbrasion?!

Check out the properties of this metal. And good luck!

See what he has tp say about the properties. The temperature it starts to react in air.

And then also look at the heat affected zone when he welds it under inert gas. Tell me if the metal is white hot when he does this and how long it stays hot. (its not even glows for a second).

The bib rubbing the ground is not even close to this sort of temperature of TIG plant and there is no inert gas.

[VacuousFlamboyant]

Longitudinal position of COG is essentially fixed by regulation (vertical is not, obviously). You can have minor differences from full fuel to empty tank depending on fuel tank location, but the horizontal position is extremely similar for all cars.
Pressure distribution, both on the top of the car and under the floor can be instead radically different and I would assume that most of the car "balance" is given by the pressure distribution rather than COG longitudinal location.

I'm not disputing its horizontal or longitunal position, I'm talking about its vertical position. We share the same opinion... My two cents is that if the COM is high and the COP is low, mass displacement will be bad regarding porpoising, besides the interaction between aero parts. To strike a balance and have the car at the right window with a setup/wings would be more challenging. That's what I see with these three races.

[Big Tea]

The car starts off heavier than it finishes, so the suspension more compressed. There is more energy in the friction at high speed, but the 'glow' is the same all through at best, but harder to see to my view at the beginning (yes, the sunlight is brighter)
Unless the metal was mounted on some sort of feed system, there would be very little of it left by the closing laps, and it seems more noticeable then (yes it was darker as the sun had fallen). In addition, after 50 laps the track would look like a Scalextric track by then too.

[dans79]

Yet they are not so far off, and reliability counts in this formula, they've excelled with that since 2014. I do wonder if porpoising is over emphasized. It seems to only occur at high speeds on straights, so it would seem the only drawback is driver comfort.

It's not that simple, compromises beget compromises, etc, etc. It can become a compounding issue very quickly.

[matteosc]

Longitudinal position of COG is essentially fixed by regulation (vertical is not, obviously). You can have minor differences from full fuel to empty tank depending on fuel tank location, but the horizontal position is extremely similar for all cars.
Pressure distribution, both on the top of the car and under the floor can be instead radically different and I would assume that most of the car "balance" is given by the pressure distribution rather than COG longitudinal location.

I'm not disputing its horizontal or longitunal position, I'm talking about its vertical position. We share the same opinion... My two cents is that if the COM is high and the COP is low, mass displacement will be bad regarding porpoising, besides the interaction between aero parts. To strike a balance and have the car at the right window with a setup/wings would be more challenging. That's what I see with these three races.

I must have misunderstood your previous statement:

What I meant is the COG shifts weigth backwards in relation to the pressure distribution around the sidepods (whole car) and lifts the front, affecting the floor.

[ringo]

They’re optical slip angle sensors have been commercially available from Datron and Correvit for twenty years now. I knew of FSAE and fast (deep pocket) amateurs who had them in the mid 2000s.

This isn’t new at all. Here is a white paper on how to use the Correvit ones:
https://www.yumpu.com/en/document/read/ ... sys-datron

If memory serves me right, the Datron ones were like $10k usd each in like 2007.

Unlike much cheaper laser ride height sensors, the optical sensors can measure yaw, slip, velocity, and ride height.

Thank you!!
I have said this and posted two articles and a youtube video with an old Sauber car from Kamui Kobayashi and Perez days, but some posters just don't want to give up the conspiracies.
They cannot be helped.

[ringo]

They’ve used it before, it’s a sensor. I’ve asked the question of the team to try and get a definitive answer.

https://twitter.com/scarbstech/status/ ... Fubpuzd8Qg

wjpbill, again thanks for that link. I've reviewed the footage from the picture in Scarbs' tweet. It came from roughly 10 minutes into FP2 during the Saudi GP last year. I'm actually more convinced after seeing it that the glow is produced from skidblock incandescence or if possible (and I have no idea of the physics behind my next theory so I could be way off), some sort of interaction between a hot skid block and the optical sensor that makes the sensors light more visible when the area immediately surrounding it becomes extremely hot.

The reason I'm more convinced after watching the 2021 Saudi FP2 footage, is because the car is shown grounding and sparking heavily around the gentle, flatout left curve leading towards the final corner T27. The sparks are seen to emanate from the righthand side of the bib, which makes sense as that part of the circuit is a lefthand curve, which causes the car to roll to the right, meaning the right side of the car and bib is closer to the surface and or creates more friction on the right side of the skid block. Into the braking area for T27, after the sparking has stopped and the car is steered into the corner, the same glow we've been discussing is visible, yet unlike Australia where it emanated from the centre of the bib (That car was travelling in a straight line), in Saudi it was offset to the right at the same spot the sparks were being generated. Here are a sequence of stills from the footage:

NOTE: The the car had been sparking and grounding for a while before the picture shown in the first still.

In this first image, that very small bright spot under the bib, that's offset to the right (our left), is the car sparking.
https://i.imgur.com/JFw1DXN.png
https://i.imgur.com/Fnw836a.png
https://i.imgur.com/j5LUZ3x.png
https://i.imgur.com/GwhtH3J.png
https://i.imgur.com/ymoauxB.png

Unfortunately almost the entire lap is shown onboard with the exception of the run down to T27 I described, so there's no way to know how the bib looked at other points during the lap. I'm also aware that some may argue that the sensor was installed offset to right, which may be valid.

Why put in all this effort?
Is it so hard to admit a misunderstanding.

[OO7]

Why put in all this effort?
Is it so hard to admit a misunderstanding.

1) Why would I admit to a misunderstanding if I thought what I was saying was correct?
2) In my next post after going through the footage again I admitted I was wrong.

[OO7]

They’re optical slip angle sensors have been commercially available from Datron and Correvit for twenty years now. I knew of FSAE and fast (deep pocket) amateurs who had them in the mid 2000s.

This isn’t new at all. Here is a white paper on how to use the Correvit ones:
https://www.yumpu.com/en/document/read/ ... sys-datron

If memory serves me right, the Datron ones were like $10k usd each in like 2007.

Unlike much cheaper laser ride height sensors, the optical sensors can measure yaw, slip, velocity, and ride height.

Thank you!!
I have said this and posted two articles and a youtube video with an old Sauber car from Kamui Kobayashi and Perez days, but some posters just don't want to give up the conspiracies.
They cannot be helped.

Ringo, no-one was disputing that those sensors existed, no-one mentioned any conspiracy.

The way the sensors work, as in the beam of light/glow they produce is quite interesting as it isn't constant (or hasn't been set-up to emit constantly) and may even be directional.

[vorticism]

...if you factor in that the Ferrari sidepod radiators are more horizontal, and therefore lifted up off the floor to fit them, compared to Merc, with their more vertical sidepod radiators that are wider at the base and fitted all the way to the floor, they may not be so far off from each other. There are some images out there of the Merc sidepod radiators, they are barely a four inches wide at the top maybe.

f.e.