Mercedes W13

A place to discuss the characteristics of the cars in Formula One, both current as well as historical. Laptimes, driver worshipping and team chatter do not belong here.
VacuousFlamboyant
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Re: Mercedes W13

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dialtone wrote:
23 Apr 2022, 20:16
VacuousFlamboyant wrote:The old iteration would probably yield better results in the short term as it produces less downforce, but that's not what they are after. That's not to say they won't look into sidepod design. The lack of individual parts tells me they will rework the car concept yet again. Otherwise, not bringing a new rear wing or floor was a huge mistake. Even if they don't match the concept, the most sensible thing, probably, would be to run a compromised setup and fill them with pressure sensors.
This is a bit of a myth at this point. Not only the F1-75 is bouncing more than the W13, at least that was the data in australia, but judging by the size of wings between Ferrari and Merc, knowing both are higher ride height, it's clear Ferrari needs less wing.

But even then... We don't actually know what the CFD models say, Merc attempted at generating more downforce and less drag, but we don't know they succeded. 2014 Ferrari also attempted better aero efficiency over engine packaging sacrifices, and they ended up with neither aero nor engine.

And the force of porpoising depends on a ton of factors, not just floor performance, softer suspension will have more bouncing for example.
Ferrari found a way to live with porpoising, Mercedes didn't. It's quite obvious at this point that teams that have a more subtle, round shape, approach with their sidepod and floor deal with the ill effects of porpoising better. It's not a matter of porpoising or not. Teams who handle it better when it occurs are better positioned.

Pay attention to how Ferrari porpoises. Their front suspension is not as happy, it doesn't rebound as much, most certainly less than their rear suspension. As the car porpoises, Mercedes front suspension lifts while turning. Generally speaking, the car favours Russell's clean driving style. He likes to brake mostly on the straights, like Jason Button. They raised the front because of the rain and it worsened.

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Spacepace
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Re: Mercedes W13

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Vanja #66 wrote:
23 Apr 2022, 21:33
Remevs wrote:
23 Apr 2022, 20:51
I heard from driver 61 that it could actually be a suspension problem and not aero, the has issues too but I think the main thing to fix is that suspension to catching the bouncing. I don't know if this avenue has been talked about here cuz Redbull have one hell of a suspension and they magically have zero porpoising.
After everything we've seen so far, especially wet running, the suspension seems to be the weakest link. Some of us have been saying this for a while. They've been hurt with regulations resulting in simplified suspension systems, they can't setup the car properly and this also results in poor aero performance on track.
Logically if you think about it Mercedes have been pushing the limits with suspension hydraulically and with different pickup points since '14. I'd imagine they relied heavily on the hydraulic system to compensate for the compromised suspension which looked to be shaped/designed purely for aero which every team did but not as extreme as Mercedes seemed to

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F1Krof
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Re: Mercedes W13

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What was interesting about the sprint-race is that all Mercedes powered cars were sitting ducks on the straight. The only overtake successfully done was by Ricciardo on Magnusen. Other teams were wizzing by much quickly on the main straight.
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pursue_one's
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Re: Mercedes W13

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" we already have ideas that we want to try out and that will find their way to the car in the next few races. I wouldn't say that our concept is completely wrong. We must keep the good and eliminate the weaknesses" said Toto Wolff.

Mercedes’ engineers are already working on a larger expansion stage, which, according to information from AMuS, is to be ignited in Barcelona.

https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/for ... la-sprint/

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chrisc90
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Re: Mercedes W13

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pursue_one's wrote:
23 Apr 2022, 22:16
" we already have ideas that we want to try out and that will find their way to the car in the next few races. I wouldn't say that our concept is completely wrong. We must keep the good and eliminate the weaknesses" said Toto Wolff.

Mercedes’ engineers are already working on a larger expansion stage, which, according to information from AMuS, is to be ignited in Barcelona.

https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/for ... la-sprint/
It worries me that they are 2 months into their design (from Barcelona) and doesnt look like they have made any progress worth shouting about. I wonder if the team at Merc have any knowledge on ground effect cars and the solutions.
Mess with the Bull - you get the horns.

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F1Krof
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Re: Mercedes W13

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chrisc90 wrote:
23 Apr 2022, 22:19
pursue_one's wrote:
23 Apr 2022, 22:16
" we already have ideas that we want to try out and that will find their way to the car in the next few races. I wouldn't say that our concept is completely wrong. We must keep the good and eliminate the weaknesses" said Toto Wolff.

Mercedes’ engineers are already working on a larger expansion stage, which, according to information from AMuS, is to be ignited in Barcelona.

https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/for ... la-sprint/
It worries me that they are 2 months into their design (from Barcelona) and doesnt look like they have made any progress worth shouting about. I wonder if the team at Merc have any knowledge on ground effect cars and the solutions.
The knowledge is there, but clearly the experience is missing. They seem to rely too much in the theory and can't seem to think outside the box. To me it sound like they need to chip into knowledge a bit more slowly, surely analyze the data but not be hindered by them. They need to focus on realistic solution, what is actually working on track rather than solely focusing on the theoretical stuff.

I also believe they've already started to feel the pain of so many good engineers going to the opposition. Especially on the PU side. I just couldn't believe they'll let the talent go by so easily! I think they've made mistake letting so many good people go that easily. Toto's only mistake so far.
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Edax
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Re: Mercedes W13

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chrisc90 wrote:
23 Apr 2022, 22:19
pursue_one's wrote:
23 Apr 2022, 22:16
" we already have ideas that we want to try out and that will find their way to the car in the next few races. I wouldn't say that our concept is completely wrong. We must keep the good and eliminate the weaknesses" said Toto Wolff.

Mercedes’ engineers are already working on a larger expansion stage, which, according to information from AMuS, is to be ignited in Barcelona.

https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/for ... la-sprint/
It worries me that they are 2 months into their design (from Barcelona) and doesnt look like they have made any progress worth shouting about. I wonder if the team at Merc have any knowledge on ground effect cars and the solutions.
I am starting to wonder. Merc for the past years was using the lowest rake of the teams.

The other teams that were working the floor much harder likely spend a lot more resources on understanding the interactions between the road and the floor (edges).

Perhaps that created the gap we’re seeing now.

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: Mercedes W13

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F1Krof wrote:
23 Apr 2022, 22:16
What was interesting about the sprint-race is that all Mercedes powered cars were sitting ducks on the straight. The only overtake successfully done was by Ricciardo on Magnusen. Other teams were wizzing by much quickly on the main straight.
The Aston was difficult to overtake. It actually took some graining on their part before they became vulnerable.
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PlatinumZealot
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Re: Mercedes W13

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The shots show that the "median" under the Mercedes floor is discernably different to their rivals. It's actually ill-shaped if you compare them. When you look af the Ferrari, RedBull, the Haas, the Alfa, the bib and the "median" are actually quite slim towards to front; very gently tapered before widening clooser to half way down the floor - almost looking like a banjo shape. The Mercedes one flares out much earlier making an obvious almond shape.

This is clearly the mistake with the Mercedes floor.
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ogonek
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Re: Mercedes W13

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Nice shot
Image

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hollus
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Re: Mercedes W13

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Just a reminder to everyone:
Please, kindly try yo talk about the car in question in the car threads (check first post of the thread). If we are going to talk here about what Ferrari does and the strategy for 2023... that is much better in the team thread.
The car threads are a bit the crown jewel of this forum, and this one is already in page 192 (including deleted posts) by April... let's try to keep it focused and hence readable.

Thunder wrote:
05 Feb 2022, 12:37
https://i.imgur.com/NVPF2Qz.png

This is the official Mercedes W13 car thread. The thread has been created to facilitate discussion specifically about the W13 car.

Please, ONLY discuss technical items of this car. Refrain from speculation.

General discussion about the team, its drivers and performance can be posted in the team thread.

Livery discussion also belongs in the 2022 Mercedes-AMG Petronas F1 Team thread.
Rivals, not enemies.

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Stu
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Re: Mercedes W13

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ogonek wrote:
24 Apr 2022, 10:19
Nice shot
https://ibb.co/HCKrh2G
Indeed it is!
You can see clearly that the side-pods do exist and where the volume that has been removed from them has been put. Also worth noting is the huge amount of exposed floor area that is present; jury is still out on whether that is a blessing or a curse at the moment.
Curious that the team that started (and maximised) the complex flow management structures (way too complex to simplify as ‘barge boards’!) now does the least to harness flow in that region.
Strangely, I think that this side-pod concept could have been an absolute game-changer with the old regulations.
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AeroDynamic
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Re: Mercedes W13

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'no sidepods' is a red herring to the issues. Barcelona spec was not free of the issue.


There was some talk that you and lewis maybe wanted to go back to the side pods you had in Barcelona, before the no-sidepod sidepods that turned up in Bahrain. Is that true? Would that be an answer? Do you want to try it, or?

George Russell: No, no. No. That’s not the answer. That’s not the reason for our limitation and we had the issue in Barcelona as well. So, we have some indications what the issue may be, but that isn’t one, so.

Was it there in the simulator? Was it only when you literally got out on track?

Yeah literally when you got out on track.

Filming day? Barcelona? Bahrain? Was it track specific or was it literally first lap?

Oh it was first lap out on track and it was straight there, so it caught everybody out by surprise.

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chrisc90
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Re: Mercedes W13

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ogonek wrote:
24 Apr 2022, 10:19
Nice shot
https://ibb.co/HCKrh2G
Looking at that picture (im a noob). It would seem like the side pods are stopping the air from flowing nicely around the body (at the black area below the mirrors)

I wonder if that is stopping the air from going nicely around them and creates more going outwards. A lot of other teams have a big undercut in that area for the air to go under the side pods, but the merc looks to throw the air outwards.

I could be completely wrong though.
Mess with the Bull - you get the horns.

GoranF1
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Re: Mercedes W13

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Did proposing phenomena happend back in the Day when ground effect cars were?
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