2022 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

[zibby43]

Absolutely. Giving up this season and this years car at this point is out of the question. They need to understand their problems first and then decide if this current concept can work. My gut tells me that it won’t work but they need to find out the why.

Clock is starting to run out on playing around with trying to understand this concept. At some point, go in a different freaking direction to obtain real-world performance over theoretical, and then understand why the new direction works better later.

Clock running out after 3 races out of 23 (4 if we want to include the unfinished weekend)… A lot of time left on that clock, no need to over react

I don’t think I’m overreacting. Time will tell whether I am. They will not compete for either championship this year. Full stop. Window is over. They still have a chance to maybe compete for a race win at some point toward the end of the year if they magically gain 1.5s.

McLaren is a perfect example of how shocking Mercedes is right now.

[SmallSoldier]

Clock is starting to run out on playing around with trying to understand this concept. At some point, go in a different freaking direction to obtain real-world performance over theoretical, and then understand why the new direction works better later.

Clock running out after 3 races out of 23 (4 if we want to include the unfinished weekend)… A lot of time left on that clock, no need to over react

I don’t think I’m overreacting. Time will tell whether I am. They will not compete for either championship this year. Full stop. Window is over. They still have a chance to maybe compete for a race win at some point toward the end of the year if they magically gain 1.5s.

McLaren is a perfect example of how shocking Mercedes is right now.

I would argue that McLaren is a good example of how you can turn things around this season… Everyone was calling the car a dog, that the concept was flawed because it didn’t follow Ferrari or RBR, for heads to roll (from Brown to Key) and they are showing enough pace to be at the front of the midfield with no real upgrades to talk about.

Mercedes issue is due to the porpoising, which some think is more related to a suspension problem than generated by the aero… If it is mechanical, then the concept may very well be the right one… They just can’t unlock the potential until they fix the other issues… So no, changing concepts this early in the season wouldn’t be helpful and is really early for it… They need to understand why it’s happening so they can fix it and they seem to be struggling to find those answers.

[torpor]

All this ‘that ship has sailed’ is much too premature.

Mercedes now knows how Ferrari’s and Red Bull’s floors look. They have a lot of engine data. And they have two more weeks to develop. They have good chances to make a big step till Miami GP.

Even Hamilton’s gap to Leclerc is just 58 points. And we’ve seen Charles is already struggling.

There are another 491 points to be awarded this season.

Brackley are best in suspension and in-season development. Brixworth built the Brazil 2021 rocket engine.

Maybe it’s just 2 or 3 puzzle piece to make the W13 the dominant car we expected.

Maybe Petronas find’s something for the E10 fuel.

We stilll don’t know if Russel and Hamilton will be WDC candidates. Still too early to say.

[chrisc90]

I think it will be Lewis' last season. But guess the money could drive him. Toto looked absolutely ruined when the cameras panned onto him as Max was about to lap Lewis. Maybe Merc were just very lucky the last seasons. Maybe it was just the car afterall....

@AA_2019 - I think George was just lucky (again?) to get the jump on Ric and Sainz having a tangle at the start. And the leading Haas getting spun round and clipping Alonso who retired a few laps later. Realistically, George overtook 1 car in the race aside from any tangles or retirements.

[zibby43]

Clock running out after 3 races out of 23 (4 if we want to include the unfinished weekend)… A lot of time left on that clock, no need to over react

I don’t think I’m overreacting. Time will tell whether I am. They will not compete for either championship this year. Full stop. Window is over. They still have a chance to maybe compete for a race win at some point toward the end of the year if they magically gain 1.5s.

McLaren is a perfect example of how shocking Mercedes is right now.

I would argue that McLaren is a good example of how you can turn things around this season… Everyone was calling the car a dog, that the concept was flawed because it didn’t follow Ferrari or RBR, for heads to roll (from Brown to Key) and they are showing enough pace to be at the front of the midfield with no real upgrades to talk about.

Mercedes issue is due to the porpoising, which some think is more related to a suspension problem than generated by the aero… If it is mechanical, then the concept may very well be the right one… They just can’t unlock the potential until they fix the other issues… So no, changing concepts this early in the season wouldn’t be helpful and is really early for it… They need to understand why it’s happening so they can fix it and they seem to be struggling to find those answers.

McLaren’s not challenging for the title though. They improved enough to snag a 3rd on merit. Which is a place where Merc has been this year, and has the potential to get back to.

That’s the lens I’m looking at this through - the championships. Sure, Merc can improve and maybe challenge for the odd race win later in the season on a weekend where Ferrari/RBR stumble.

Time to let go of the championship talk. The team has.

That was one of my main points. On the “concept” - they shouldn’t change just for the sake of changing.

But they can’t afford to stick with it because they’re enamored by the “theoretical” performance on paper, either. Hopefully that better summarizes my other point.

[zibby43]

Maybe Merc were just very lucky the last seasons. Maybe it was just the car afterall....

This trolling doesn’t deserve a reaction. But just in case this was actually sincere on your part:

LOL.

[Emag]

IMO if the barcelona upgrades dont work i think heads will roll in the design office OR moved aside to something else. This is a cut-throat business you make a serious mistake in fundamental design (which you had MORE time to look at than RB), your moved aside, as you can't make mistake again and if management have lost confidence in your ability, then u be moved aside to something else. So i can see some engineers be fearing the worse if the car doesn't at least get close to Ferrari / RB by mid season.

This is not how you run a team-based business. Those same people you are trying to fire right now delivered some of the most dominant cars the sport has ever seen just a couple of years ago. At the first speedbump you want to throw them under the bus? That's some great appreciation on your employees after they have given you the longest streak of double world championships ever.

If they were celebrating together as a team on the good days, then you must be able to handle disappointment as a team as well. It's literally been 4 races into the season and you already want to fire people? That's guaranteed to create instability which will not help at all going into the next season as well.

What Mercedes had going until now was incredibly impressive, but they are a team ran by humans, and at some point you are bound to get it wrong. Nothing is perfect after all. And in the case of Mercedes, they have only managed to get it wrong after nearly a decade of not just getting it right, but blowing the competition out of the water.

If they don't manage to bounce back this season, they can still get it right for the next. After years of winning, a single bad season is not the end of the world.

[Big Tea]

Remember too that RBR and Ferrari have taken the easy pickings so it will be harder and harder for them to gain tenths, and it looks like Merc have not scratched the surface of extras so far, they have put all their efforts in to trying to keep the car on the road.

[proteus]

I was riding onboard with Lewis in F1 tv. I don't see anything he could have done differently. He was on the gearbox of the Alfa Tauri for basically the whole medium tire stint, was mostly within 0.4sec but Gasly also had DRS somehow. Gasly always took the inside line away whenever Lewis got too close and Lewis, as soon as he pulled to the side, seemed to lose momentum. I suspect he was slightly lifting at the end of the straight because of the porpoising. But the weird thing is that Gasly wasn't within 1sec of Albon initially, but as soon as DRS got activated, he closed to within 1 sec so he could get the DRS. Also strangely enough, Gasly with Honda power, never made an impression on Albon who was at the front of the train with no DRS. Very strange. It's almost as if they were all conspiring to keep Lewis behind. Just kidding, but Lewis drove hard actually, just really unlucky day and he was never able to show what kind of pace he had. I've said it before though that it takes him usually half a season to really gel with the car. Max surely found that out last year. But this year, he may lose motivation and get thumped by Russell. Oh well it is what it is.

The difference is that there is no power superiority like it was in Brazil last year. Now we see even more of what rocket that car/engine was.

Siedl and Toto confirmed the engine was the same as the others. It clearly was because in Quatar, Jedddah and Abu Dhabi the Mercedes was on par with Honda again. It was Hamilton's setup that was a calculated risk that worked.

Doesn't make sense to perpetuate rumours of this "rocket engine" anymore. Too much sensible here people to fall for that one.

Brazil was the place where he had the rocketship. Without extra power he would never been able to get past everyone. He managed to fly past a Mclaren when both had opened DRS, and we know that Mclaren wasnt a slow car on the straight last year. You can do alot with good setup indeed, but you need power to make it work.

[proteus]

Dont think so. He was lucky to get to that position. After that, surprisingly, no chance to approach Lando, almost lost position to Bottas what reflects true speed of Mercedes in Imola. Lewis was lacking straight line speed and got stuck in DRS train. Hope Gasly is satisfied with his race with zero attack on Albon

Lucky? Many were faster than him indeed, and jet he managed to retain 4th position while Lewis was stuck in 14th. George did great job over the whole race. Right from the start and trough to the end.

And what wrong has Gasly done? Should he simply move to the side because he was unable to past Albon?

And what should do Lewis differently? The whole race in 1 second without possibility to overtake. I dont think he did bad job with the car. In clean air/without stucking in DRS he would show the real race pace as Russell could. I think team could take more risk in strategy. Look at the sprint race, no miracle from Russell in traffic as well…

He could start better like Russell did. He could pit earlier, especially when he had nothing to lose. Button for example was brilliant in this kind of situations when it came to put on slicks when it was still damp track.

Saying that finishing 13th was good job when a teammate finished 4th is a bit strange statement. You can call it luck or whatever, but the fact is that George is bringing home the bacon right now and Lewis is somewhat lost at the back. In 4 races he managed to finish in front once, while George did it 3 times in a row and allways managing to be in top 5.

[SmallSoldier]

I don’t think I’m overreacting. Time will tell whether I am. They will not compete for either championship this year. Full stop. Window is over. They still have a chance to maybe compete for a race win at some point toward the end of the year if they magically gain 1.5s.

McLaren is a perfect example of how shocking Mercedes is right now.

I would argue that McLaren is a good example of how you can turn things around this season… Everyone was calling the car a dog, that the concept was flawed because it didn’t follow Ferrari or RBR, for heads to roll (from Brown to Key) and they are showing enough pace to be at the front of the midfield with no real upgrades to talk about.

Mercedes issue is due to the porpoising, which some think is more related to a suspension problem than generated by the aero… If it is mechanical, then the concept may very well be the right one… They just can’t unlock the potential until they fix the other issues… So no, changing concepts this early in the season wouldn’t be helpful and is really early for it… They need to understand why it’s happening so they can fix it and they seem to be struggling to find those answers.

McLaren’s not challenging for the title though. They improved enough to snag a 3rd on merit. Which is a place where Merc has been this year, and has the potential to get back to.

That’s the lens I’m looking at this through - the championships. Sure, Merc can improve and maybe challenge for the odd race win later in the season on a weekend where Ferrari/RBR stumble.

Time to let go of the championship talk. The team has.

That was one of my main points. On the “concept” - they shouldn’t change just for the sake of changing.

But they can’t afford to stick with it because they’re enamored by the “theoretical” performance on paper, either. Hopefully that better summarizes my other point.

I agree that the Championship will be a very tall order for Mercedes this season… Thanks for elaborating!

Probably I should have explained mine better also… Even though I agree that the WCC may be a very hard to achieve target for Mercedes, it doesn’t mean that their concept is necessarily wrong… Yes, it is not performing as expected right now, but without knowing which is the exact cause for the lack of performance, it will be very risky and probably mistaken to go hunt for a different concept, without knowing what isn’t working or correlating on this car, it could very well happen with a different concept also.

At this point, the team (and most definitely the fans) don’t know if the concept is the right or the wrong one, is it an aero or a mechanical problem… Going for a different concept to fix what exactly? If they don’t know what is causing the extreme porpoising, how do they design a new concept that doesn’t carry over this characteristic?

An argument could be made to go an copy either Ferrari’s or Red Bull’s concept, but that would mean most probably been behind next season too, because while they are using time to copy / understand their rivals concept, their rivals are refining, improving and adding performance to those concepts (like the situation with the “pink mercedes”, Racing Point was capable of copying Mercedes concept, but they were never going to beat them with it).

[SmallSoldier]

Lucky? Many were faster than him indeed, and jet he managed to retain 4th position while Lewis was stuck in 14th. George did great job over the whole race. Right from the start and trough to the end.

And what wrong has Gasly done? Should he simply move to the side because he was unable to past Albon?

And what should do Lewis differently? The whole race in 1 second without possibility to overtake. I dont think he did bad job with the car. In clean air/without stucking in DRS he would show the real race pace as Russell could. I think team could take more risk in strategy. Look at the sprint race, no miracle from Russell in traffic as well…

He could start better like Russell did. He could pit earlier, especially when he had nothing to lose. Button for example was brilliant in this kind of situations when it came to put on slicks when it was still damp track.

Saying that finishing 13th was good job when a teammate finished 4th is a bit strange statement. You can call it luck or whatever, but the fact is that George is bringing home the bacon right now and Lewis is somewhat lost at the back. In 4 races he managed to finish in front once, while George did it 3 times in a row and allways managing to be in top 5.

No one can take anything away from George, but if you are going to measure performance, you have to do it in context… And luck as well as on track incidents / situations play a factor… Australia is a good example, without the timing of the safety car, Hamilton would have finished ahead of George… The stats won’t show that, but is the most probable scenario… In Imola, George made a great move on Magnussen, someone without a tow and clearly struggling with grip at that point of the GP… Hamilton on the other hand had his race complicated even further with an slow stop that cost him on track position (and the pitlane situation with Ocon) and struggling in a train of cars that had similar top speed and with a tow / drs for most of the dry tire stint… Both drivers were in very different races to each other.

You also mention that he could have change tires earlier, every team waited because they had rain in the forecast in within the first half of the race (which didn’t materialize)… It wasn’t a matter of the driver been capable of driving with Mediums on the changeable conditions, it was an issue of making a useless pit stop.

Lewis isn’t having a great start to the season, that’s undeniable… And George is doing a great job to take advantage of the opportunities that he is encountering.

[Tvetovnato]

Lucky? Many were faster than him indeed, and jet he managed to retain 4th position while Lewis was stuck in 14th. George did great job over the whole race. Right from the start and trough to the end.

And what wrong has Gasly done? Should he simply move to the side because he was unable to past Albon?

And what should do Lewis differently? The whole race in 1 second without possibility to overtake. I dont think he did bad job with the car. In clean air/without stucking in DRS he would show the real race pace as Russell could. I think team could take more risk in strategy. Look at the sprint race, no miracle from Russell in traffic as well…

He could start better like Russell did. He could pit earlier, especially when he had nothing to lose. Button for example was brilliant in this kind of situations when it came to put on slicks when it was still damp track.

Saying that finishing 13th was good job when a teammate finished 4th is a bit strange statement. You can call it luck or whatever, but the fact is that George is bringing home the bacon right now and Lewis is somewhat lost at the back. In 4 races he managed to finish in front once, while George did it 3 times in a row and allways managing to be in top 5.

3 times in a row, where one of those were completely down to luck with safety car. And it's easy to say "he could start better", when again completely disregarding the circumstances. He had a quite decent start, but after a few metres the track was completely crowded leaving him nowhere to go. George had more space, which sometimes happens during at start lottery like today on a wet and narrow track. We all saw what happened later in the race where George struggled to pass a HAAS and just made it when the HAAS didn't even have the DRS open, while Lewis was stuck in a DRS train all the time. It's more down to being at the right place at the right time on a day like today, which George happened to be. I know that people love to bash Lewis just for the sake of it, but it's getting a bit out of hand when not even factoring in any circumstances whatsoever. But you see what you want to see I guess.

[LM10]

All this ‘that ship has sailed’ is much too premature.

Mercedes now knows how Ferrari’s and Red Bull’s floors look. They have a lot of engine data. And they have two more weeks to develop. They have good chances to make a big step till Miami GP.

Even Hamilton’s gap to Leclerc is just 58 points. And we’ve seen Charles is already struggling.

There are another 491 points to be awarded this season.

Brackley are best in suspension and in-season development. Brixworth built the Brazil 2021 rocket engine.

Maybe it’s just 2 or 3 puzzle piece to make the W13 the dominant car we expected.

Maybe Petronas find’s something for the E10 fuel.

We stilll don’t know if Russel and Hamilton will be WDC candidates. Still too early to say.

Do you think that now Mercedes knows how RedBull's and Ferrari's floors look they'll copy them, put it on the car in 2 weeks and win the race? F1 does not work like that, not even close.

I've not seen a struggling Charles. I don't know what you mean.

The Brazil 2021 rocket engine basically was the same as the previous ones, just mapped and used at full beans for the whole races since the aim was to use it in three or so races only.

Petronas can't find something for the E10 fuel because fuel is homologated too - no more development.

I for myself know that Russel and Hamilton won't be WDC candidates this year and it definitely is not too early to say at this point. I also don't think that it's a big deal or a shame to talk about it or accept it. We'll see how they will do next season and the seasons after, but the current season is not their's. It is how it is.

[ringo]

Short attention span from some watchers here.
4 races in and calling for totto to quit and lewis to retire?
Even when Ocon is beating Alonso week in and week out we still have patience with Alonso finding a win or podium in his midfield car for years.
Alonso can get good results out of a slow csr they say. And yet Ocon is the one bringing home the bacon. Why cant we have the same approach with Lewis, who is doing a better job by being faster or just as fast as George and is in his twilight of his career?
Just to put things into contect. Look on Alonso, Shumacher at the end of their careers. Where are the calls for them to commit seppuku?
Let's just be patient. Today was a bad race. The car has no traction and poor top speed. It can close in the slip stream but as soon as it pulls out its too draggy and has to brake early.
Lewis did not have a good race. But nothing he could do. George had a solid mistake free race. And he is doing well.
Lewis will start getting some results eventually. He is coming from a win challenger to a podium speculative car. There is a huge shift in mentality that he is currently transitioning through. Eventually he will change his mindset to one that just needs to hunt for good pointa and not wins.
He was robbed last year and found comfort in the hopes that the 2022 car will give him that 8th championship. So he took the high road and withdrew the claims against the FIA. Fast forward 4 months and he is floundering at the back while Max, last years awardee, is thriving at the front. It's a lot to handle mentally and process.