Mercedes W13

[djones]

I really don't understand the flawed idea that the Mercedes PU is not still the best.

The slow speeds are related to drag.

I've no doubt at all that as soon as Mercedes sort the aero issues the car will all of a sudden be really fast on the straights.

[Vanja #66]

I really don't understand the flawed idea that the Mercedes PU is not still the best.

The slow speeds are related to drag.

I've no doubt at all that as soon as Mercedes sort the aero issues the car will all of a sudden be really fast on the straights.

At most, the PU lacks 10 HP. Which is 1-2kmh lower top speed at most, so yeah, there is no evidence of poor PU, along with the fact no one in the team mentions that.

Car has too much drag, so needs more efficient aero. In terms of bouncing, Ferrari proved you can go fast with it. So obviously, aero on its own isn't such a big problem. Aero coupled with suspension, that's what this is all about. And that's what makes it so difficult to change and improve in the right way.

[clownfish]

I really don't understand the flawed idea that the Mercedes PU is not still the best.

The slow speeds are related to drag.

I've no doubt at all that as soon as Mercedes sort the aero issues the car will all of a sudden be really fast on the straights.

Your thoughts on this? (There are further details on the approach here: https://www.buymeacoffee.com/F1DataAnal ... s-mercedes )

[PlatinumZealot]

https://twitter.com/hotlapmode/status/1 ... jzQqx2yMRQ

https://twitter.com/hotlapmode/status/1 ... jzQqx2yMRQ

I'd say take this info with plenty of salt, but still...

I'm just baffled, how could they end up with the weakest PU while ending with strongest one last year?

Because E10 wrecked most manufacturers. Honda discussed this liberally.

I don't buy this. Again doing a bit of research on race fuel manufacturer's website I found the top unleaded racing fuel product to be E10 or close to it. We already know that F1 fuels before 2022 were not the most aggressive fuels out there. They were "designer" fuels to increase consistency, but they weren't as "potent" as they used to be in the past and manufacturers were still able to extract every last drop of energy. So I'm not buying this E10 drama, because no manufacturer is complaining about it currently. There is simply zero evidence that Mercedes is struggling with E10. They would have had an extra year to develop this fuel because of Covid-19. Lets keep calm and observe as the season develops.

[AA_2019]

https://twitter.com/hotlapmode/status/1 ... jzQqx2yMRQ

[/quote]

If the zero pod design / lack of floor rigidity is a major contributor to their problems, why don't they add on fake side pods connecting the floor with the main body. Think an inverted L shape but nicely curved

[vorticism]

I really don't understand the flawed idea that the Mercedes PU is not still the best.

The slow speeds are related to drag.

I've no doubt at all that as soon as Mercedes sort the aero issues the car will all of a sudden be really fast on the straights.

At most, the PU lacks 10 HP. Which is 1-2kmh lower top speed at most, so yeah, there is no evidence of poor PU, along with the fact no one in the team mentions that.

Car has too much drag, so needs more efficient aero. In terms of bouncing, Ferrari proved you can go fast with it. So obviously, aero on its own isn't such a big problem. Aero coupled with suspension, that's what this is all about. And that's what makes it so difficult to change and improve in the right way.

They're the only car without an outwashing sidepod. This must be significant as it relates to side floor aero and front tire wake.

[AA_2019]

They're the only car without an outwashing sidepod. This must be significant as it relates to side floor aero and front tire wake.
[/quote]

Reminds of the disastrous 2009 McLaren LH drove at the start, they used an in-washing front wing end plate design unlike the leading outwashing cars.

Half way through the season they discovered that the in-washing design was starving the floor of air flow at higher speeds and so made it unstable.

Wonder if the non-outwashing w13's floor is being starved of air flow at higher speeds

[djones]

I really don't understand the flawed idea that the Mercedes PU is not still the best.

The slow speeds are related to drag.

I've no doubt at all that as soon as Mercedes sort the aero issues the car will all of a sudden be really fast on the straights.

Your thoughts on this? (There are further details on the approach here: https://www.buymeacoffee.com/F1DataAnal ... s-mercedes )

My thoughts are this is ok for a bit of fun, but it's ultimately meaningless and has no reliable foundation to judge either power or drag.

The truth is we need to wait and see what happens when the aero is fixed and they are not having to overcompensate with high drag downforce.

[AR3-GP]

I really don't understand the flawed idea that the Mercedes PU is not still the best.

The slow speeds are related to drag.

I've no doubt at all that as soon as Mercedes sort the aero issues the car will all of a sudden be really fast on the straights.

Your thoughts on this? (There are further details on the approach here: https://www.buymeacoffee.com/F1DataAnal ... s-mercedes )

My thoughts are this is ok for a bit of fun, but it's ultimately meaningless and has no reliable foundation to judge either power or drag.

The truth is we need to wait and see what happens when the aero is fixed and they are not having to overcompensate with high drag downforce.

Fixing the aero isn’t going to give any insight into the PU. It would only show that they have changed the aero.

[Hoffman900]

A small amount of drag can be the equivalent of 50hp or more at terminal velocity. I’d say the PU’s are close enough together to be a relative wash, and the differences are in aero concept.

[matteosc]

I really don't understand the flawed idea that the Mercedes PU is not still the best.

The slow speeds are related to drag.

I've no doubt at all that as soon as Mercedes sort the aero issues the car will all of a sudden be really fast on the straights.

Your thoughts on this? (There are further details on the approach here: https://www.buymeacoffee.com/F1DataAnal ... s-mercedes )

My thoughts are this is ok for a bit of fun, but it's ultimately meaningless and has no reliable foundation to judge either power or drag.

The truth is we need to wait and see what happens when the aero is fixed and they are not having to overcompensate with high drag downforce.

If I am not mistaken the analysis is done comparing acceleration at various speed. In this way you are able to estimate separately power and drag, which is why you can say 2% PU, 1.6% drag.

[AR3-GP]

I really don't understand the flawed idea that the Mercedes PU is not still the best.

The slow speeds are related to drag.

I've no doubt at all that as soon as Mercedes sort the aero issues the car will all of a sudden be really fast on the straights.

Your thoughts on this? (There are further details on the approach here: https://www.buymeacoffee.com/F1DataAnal ... s-mercedes )

This is interesting but it's not too precise I think. I think people rarely consider that the car squats down the straight. Angle of attack decreases somewhat for all of the wings. You can even see the front wing flexing.

If you try and do a drag = Cv^2 calculation for the Mercedes W12 in Turkey or Brazil last year, you would be very wrong because the car was shedding drag by squatting and changing its pitch.

[matteosc]

I really don't understand the flawed idea that the Mercedes PU is not still the best.

The slow speeds are related to drag.

I've no doubt at all that as soon as Mercedes sort the aero issues the car will all of a sudden be really fast on the straights.

Your thoughts on this? (There are further details on the approach here: https://www.buymeacoffee.com/F1DataAnal ... s-mercedes )

This is interesting but it's not too precise I think. I think people rarely consider that the car squats down the straight. Angle of attack decreases somewhat for all of the wings. You can even see the front wing flexing.

If you try and do a drag = Cv^2 calculation for the Mercedes W12 in Turkey or Brazil last year, you would be very wrong because the car was shedding drag by squatting and changing its pitch.

That is true, but I am not sure whether it is influent in making a comparison, since both Ferrari and Mercedes change their angle of attacks in a similar way.

[AR3-GP]

Your thoughts on this? (There are further details on the approach here: https://www.buymeacoffee.com/F1DataAnal ... s-mercedes )

This is interesting but it's not too precise I think. I think people rarely consider that the car squats down the straight. Angle of attack decreases somewhat for all of the wings. You can even see the front wing flexing.

If you try and do a drag = Cv^2 calculation for the Mercedes W12 in Turkey or Brazil last year, you would be very wrong because the car was shedding drag by squatting and changing its pitch.

That is true, but I am not sure whether it is influent in making a comparison, since both Ferrari and Mercedes change their angle of attacks in a similar way.

You mean the porpoising? lol. I don't think they porpoise the same.

Also, few cars were doing what Mercedes was doing last season. There's no knowledge that they attitude change is the same.

[matteosc]

This is interesting but it's not too precise I think. I think people rarely consider that the car squats down the straight. Angle of attack decreases somewhat for all of the wings. You can even see the front wing flexing.

If you try and do a drag = Cv^2 calculation for the Mercedes W12 in Turkey or Brazil last year, you would be very wrong because the car was shedding drag by squatting and changing its pitch.

That is true, but I am not sure whether it is influent in making a comparison, since both Ferrari and Mercedes change their angle of attacks in a similar way.

You mean the porpoising? lol. I don't think they porpoise the same.

Also, few cars were doing what Mercedes was doing last season. There's no knowledge that they attitude change is the same.

1) Porpoising on the straight is actually very similar between Merc and Ferrari, but even so, it does not really affect this analysis, since it is an oscillation and does not directly affect the drag.
2) What was happening last year has zero influence in this analysis.