Hamilton Study about F1 Jobs

[MattWellsyWells]

F1 isn't diverse?

20 drivers...You have Mexican , Chinese , Thai , English , Spanish , Australian , Canadian, Monaco, Danish, Dutch, Japanese, German.

Personally I feel its been a 'lonely road' for him is that he never bothers t mingle and have banter with the other drivers on the grid/pits/podiums etc. He just keeps to himself (and Angela). If you dont join in with the group activities/socialism, then you get left out and there's nobody to blame for that but yourself IMHO. It also shouldn't be forgotten about how he got there...funded by Ron Dennis on his 'lonely journey' in F1.

You're right there are lots of nationalities on the grid although most are pretty "western", but in terms of ethnicity, Hamilton is the first and only black driver in F1. I'm not gonna pretend I have any idea what that is like being a white man but I have heard people reference their struggles of being "the only" and it sounds like its probably quite an isolating experience.

I guess. It’s good he’s raising awareness to other black drivers/staff of colour with his campaigns.

However, it does not automatically mean there should be ‘more’ people in the sport.

If someone is qualified/experience lad enough then they can make the cut.

Nothing is stopping anyone from doing any role if they put their mind/heart/soul into it.

Generally I do agree with you and I think a lot of people have a victim mentality when perhaps they shouldn't. But there are a lot of people who miss out on opportunities because of their ethnicity/background etc. and that is where it starts to become a problem.

[Sieper]

Racism is real, you would have to be an incredible talent (like Hamilton) to get a chance. And fight hard for it.

Motorsports cost so much money, you need a backing. But even in less expensive sports you see the same. And in all walks of live. In our company we are now hiring more balanced men/women and ethnic background. Ofcourse first on qualification. But really, all new hires are.

[PlatinumZealot]

F1 isn't diverse?

20 drivers...You have Mexican , Chinese , Thai , English , Spanish , Australian , Canadian, Monaco, Danish, Dutch, Japanese, German.

Personally I feel its been a 'lonely road' for him is that he never bothers t mingle and have banter with the other drivers on the grid/pits/podiums etc. He just keeps to himself (and Angela). If you dont join in with the group activities/socialism, then you get left out and there's nobody to blame for that but yourself IMHO. It also shouldn't be forgotten about how he got there...funded by Ron Dennis on his 'lonely journey' in F1.

The drivers have always been diverse (when they have the money that is!). Check out the first official F1 race in 1950.

Lewis it talking about the entire F1 workplace and he gave his figures in his report. The report was too long winded for me to read in depth, but it's quite comprehensive and it's a good model for all areas of STEM not just F1, and can apply to different countries. It's a great body of work. Never seen a study like this commissioned from a sportsman before. It's groundbreaking and we will look back on it as such. We really won't fully appreciate Lewis until he's gone from the sport.

[PlatinumZealot]

F1 isn't diverse?

20 drivers...You have Mexican , Chinese , Thai , English , Spanish , Australian , Canadian, Monaco, Danish, Dutch, Japanese, German.

Personally I feel its been a 'lonely road' for him is that he never bothers t mingle and have banter with the other drivers on the grid/pits/podiums etc. He just keeps to himself (and Angela). If you dont join in with the group activities/socialism, then you get left out and there's nobody to blame for that but yourself IMHO. It also shouldn't be forgotten about how he got there...funded by Ron Dennis on his 'lonely journey' in F1.

You're right there are lots of nationalities on the grid although most are pretty "western", but in terms of ethnicity, Hamilton is the first and only black driver in F1. I'm not gonna pretend I have any idea what that is like being a white man but I have heard people reference their struggles of being "the only" and it sounds like its probably quite an isolating experience.

I guess. It’s good he’s raising awareness to other black drivers/staff of colour with his campaigns.

However, it does not automatically mean there should be ‘more’ people in the sport.

Lewis is not saying that under-qualified people of colour should be given a spot over someone that is qualified (whatever race or ethnicity). He goes into find out the reasons why persons of colour (especially black people) are not being able to go for (disadvantaged, or even not interested, or even discouraged from going for) opportunities in the sport and suggest ways for the industry to help cure that problem.

If someone is qualified/experience lad enough then they can make the cut.

I have so much experience with this not happening. It's common knowledge that this is not the case. Are you a person of colour to say this from first hand? Forget about the University "diversity quotas" those are limited spots for marketing reasons. After university getting an actual job is crazy difficult if you are from a certain background.

Nothing is stopping anyone from doing any role if they put their mind/heart/soul into it.

Crazy statement. Crazy, crazy statement! It's so inaccurate!

I will leave it to you, if you willing to take the time, to find reasons why certain groups of people people have difficulties in going for and getting certain roles even if they put their heart and minds into it. That will be a long read but it's needed if you want to talk about this topic.

Chrisc90 I'm sure are you a well educated guy and we have brilliant engineers and scientist here, but sometimes we (including myself) have to do proper reading on certain topics before we make sweeping statements.

I don't know what to say... It's sad because you say this, and I know so many brilliant engineers who topped their class and we turned down, a few I know gave up and had to do additional degrees to try for something more open.

[Zynerji]

F1 is, and has always been, a meritocracy. There are, and have been, engineers, team principals, agents, drivers and owners that are considered a minority.

Motorsports have an appeal to the individual, not their race.

Of all of the World's institutions, I will never understand how F1 is in any way brought to ill-repute by these baseless accusations of racism..

[chrisc90]

You're right there are lots of nationalities on the grid although most are pretty "western", but in terms of ethnicity, Hamilton is the first and only black driver in F1. I'm not gonna pretend I have any idea what that is like being a white man but I have heard people reference their struggles of being "the only" and it sounds like its probably quite an isolating experience.

I guess. It’s good he’s raising awareness to other black drivers/staff of colour with his campaigns.

However, it does not automatically mean there should be ‘more’ people in the sport.

Lewis is not saying that under-qualified people of colour should be given a spot over someone that is qualified (whatever race or ethnicity). He goes into find out the reasons why persons of colour (especially black people) are not being able to go for (disadvantaged, or even not interested, or even discouraged from going for) opportunities in the sport and suggest ways for the industry to help cure that problem.

If someone is qualified/experience lad enough then they can make the cut.

I have so much experience with this not happening. It's common knowledge that this is not the case. Are you a person of colour to say this from first hand? Forget about the University "diversity quotas" those are limited spots for marketing reasons. After university getting an actual job is crazy difficult if you are from a certain background.

Nothing is stopping anyone from doing any role if they put their mind/heart/soul into it.

Crazy statement. Crazy, crazy statement! It's so inaccurate!

I will leave it to you, if you willing to take the time, to find reasons why certain groups of people people have difficulties in going for and getting certain roles even if they put their heart and minds into it. That will be a long read but it's needed if you want to talk about this topic.

Chrisc90 I'm sure are you a well educated guy and we have brilliant engineers and scientist here, but sometimes we (including myself) have to do proper reading on certain topics before we make sweeping statements.

I don't know what to say... It's sad because you say this, and I know so many brilliant engineers who topped their class and we turned down, a few I know gave up and had to do additional degrees to try for something more open.

I guess you speak for everyone/every business when you say that a certain group of people have more difficulty in securing a job post uni?

I mean its quite frankly impossible for anyone to suggest this is truly the case unless any person applies for every position going and know they dont get the job based on their background or colour.

If I was a employer of a race team (or any business outside of motorsport) and I had a list of 2 candidates shortlisted. Person A - Level 3 in xyz subject, 2 years experience working in xyz company doing apprentice level subject however is white
Person B - Honours in xyz subject, multiple years working as a aerodynamicist (example), looking to further career or fancies a change of workplace however is a person of colour.

I would choose the guy who is more experienced. As a company you'd want the best possible person who is going to be a asset to your team.

Its odd to say that the companies a person has applied for and didn't get the job is solely down to a person's colour, background etc. However I am not a person who is qualified to be in a race team neither do I process any knowledge of it.

You could take football as a prime example of a sport that has a lot of people of colour competing at the highest level. Theres loads of coloured footballers in the premier league for example. If they werent good enough, they wouldnt be competing at one of the highest levels of football. Athletics tournaments on a worldwide scale... You see lots of coloured people competing there.

Whilst you might not agree with my comments, I stand by them as its my own opinion. Whilst I might not have any first hand experience of a coloured person in motorsport, I really do find it hard to believe race teams wouldnt chose not to employ a coloured person from a different culture/background.

Im sure you could go through every race team and their staff, including those behind the scenes, and find numerous people from a range of backgrounds/ethnicities.

[PlatinumZealot]

I guess you speak for everyone/every business when you say that a certain group of people have more difficulty in securing a job post uni?

I mean its quite frankly impossible for anyone to suggest this is truly the case unless any person applies for every position going and know they dont get the job based on their background or colour.

If I was a employer of a race team (or any business outside of motorsport) and I had a list of 2 candidates shortlisted. Person A - Level 3 in xyz subject, 2 years experience working in xyz company doing apprentice level subject however is white
Person B - Honours in xyz subject, multiple years working as a aerodynamicist (example), looking to further career or fancies a change of workplace however is a person of colour.

I would choose the guy who is more experienced. As a company you'd want the best possible person who is going to be a asset to your team.

Its odd to say that the companies a person has applied for and didn't get the job is solely down to a person's colour, background etc. However I am not a person who is qualified to be in a race team neither do I process any knowledge of it.

You could take football as a prime example of a sport that has a lot of people of colour competing at the highest level. Theres loads of coloured footballers in the premier league for example. If they werent good enough, they wouldnt be competing at one of the highest levels of football. Athletics tournaments on a worldwide scale... You see lots of coloured people competing there.

Whilst you might not agree with my comments, I stand by them as its my own opinion. Whilst I might not have any first hand experience of a coloured person in motorsport, I really do find it hard to believe race teams wouldnt chose not to employ a coloured person from a different culture/background.

Im sure you could go through every race team and their staff, including those behind the scenes, and find numerous people from a range of backgrounds/ethnicities.

Yes, but according to Lewis' study it is big disproportion. This sort of thing is very studied. For example, people always say that Asian students have an affinity for mathematics. They are strong math yes, but why? is it natural? Studies show this level of math ability had a strong relation to their agriculture. Asians tend to the most difficult crops, which require intense commitment and hard tireless work till harvesting time. This culture over thousands of years, created a sort of attitude of "stick-to-it-iveness." Their students to stick to math and keep working on it - so at the end of the day you get a broader net. So you see a high proportion of immigrant Asians in the STEM field in western countries. Note... culture...history conditions... America is currently making moves in how math is administered to its students at all levels to get them more up to speed with the boom in STEM in Asia.

Lewis has noticed the huge dearth of his people in STEM.. his study is to see how the culture...history conditions affect this, and he wants to improve this condition with the HELP of industry players. Help doesn't mean hiring under-qualified people. Most of the time person's have colour have to be exceptional to get the job anyway (like Lewis!)

It's a great study, and a good call for support.

[Zynerji]

I guess you speak for everyone/every business when you say that a certain group of people have more difficulty in securing a job post uni?

I mean its quite frankly impossible for anyone to suggest this is truly the case unless any person applies for every position going and know they dont get the job based on their background or colour.

If I was a employer of a race team (or any business outside of motorsport) and I had a list of 2 candidates shortlisted. Person A - Level 3 in xyz subject, 2 years experience working in xyz company doing apprentice level subject however is white
Person B - Honours in xyz subject, multiple years working as a aerodynamicist (example), looking to further career or fancies a change of workplace however is a person of colour.

I would choose the guy who is more experienced. As a company you'd want the best possible person who is going to be a asset to your team.

Its odd to say that the companies a person has applied for and didn't get the job is solely down to a person's colour, background etc. However I am not a person who is qualified to be in a race team neither do I process any knowledge of it.

You could take football as a prime example of a sport that has a lot of people of colour competing at the highest level. Theres loads of coloured footballers in the premier league for example. If they werent good enough, they wouldnt be competing at one of the highest levels of football. Athletics tournaments on a worldwide scale... You see lots of coloured people competing there.

Whilst you might not agree with my comments, I stand by them as its my own opinion. Whilst I might not have any first hand experience of a coloured person in motorsport, I really do find it hard to believe race teams wouldnt chose not to employ a coloured person from a different culture/background.

Im sure you could go through every race team and their staff, including those behind the scenes, and find numerous people from a range of backgrounds/ethnicities.

Yes, but according to Lewis' study it is big disproportion. This sort of thing is very studied. For example, people always say that Asian students have an affinity for mathematics. They are strong math yes, but why? is it natural? Studies show this level of math ability had a strong relation to their agriculture. Asians tend to the most difficult crops, which require intense commitment and hard tireless work till harvesting time. This culture over thousands of years, created a sort of attitude of "stick-to-it-iveness." Their students to stick to math and keep working on it - so at the end of the day you get a broader net. So you see a high proportion of immigrant Asians in the STEM field in western countries. Note... culture...history conditions... America is currently making moves in how math is administered to its students at all levels to get them more up to speed with the boom in STEM in Asia.

Lewis has noticed the huge dearth of his people in STEM.. his study is to see how the culture...history conditions affect this, and he wants to improve this condition with the HELP of industry players. Help doesn't mean hiring under-qualified people. Most of the time person's have colour have to be exceptional to get the job anyway (like Lewis!)

It's a great study, and a good call for support.

When does the personal responsibility of the folks that want these jobs come into the equation? The hard work, determination and effort that it takes is secondary to the passion necessary to choose that path in the first place.

Maybe folks of color just don't want certain jobs? When is their choices taken into account in this study? Have they charted the applications to these schools to see if anyone is applying in the first place, or is it an "outcome imbalance" that leads to the manufacturing of reasons to explain the differences?

[chrisc90]

Yes, but according to Lewis' study it is big disproportion. This sort of thing is very studied. For example, people always say that Asian students have an affinity for mathematics. They are strong math yes, but why? is it natural? Studies show this level of math ability had a strong relation to their agriculture. Asians tend to the most difficult crops, which require intense commitment and hard tireless work till harvesting time. This culture over thousands of years, created a sort of attitude of "stick-to-it-iveness." Their students to stick to math and keep working on it - so at the end of the day you get a broader net. So you see a high proportion of immigrant Asians in the STEM field in western countries. Note... culture...history conditions... America is currently making moves in how math is administered to its students at all levels to get them more up to speed with the boom in STEM in Asia.

Lewis has noticed the huge dearth of his people in STEM.. his study is to see how the culture...history conditions affect this, and he wants to improve this condition with the HELP of industry players. Help doesn't mean hiring under-qualified people. Most of the time person's have colour have to be exceptional to get the job anyway (like Lewis!)

It's a great study, and a good call for support.

I'm not sure what more he wants/is trying to achieve though? The best he can do is acknowledge the proportion of people from different backgrounds in motorsport. At best with that you can raise awareness to people and what routes/lines of study they can go down to get into specific areas of motorsport engineering. However, I believe it should be focused on all younger ages from all backgrounds/deprived areas, rather than focusing on a certain group of people.

[PlatinumZealot]

When does the personal responsibility of the folks that want these jobs come into the equation? The hard work, determination and effort that it takes is secondary to the passion necessary to choose that path in the first place.

Best to read the study and your question will be answered. Personal responsibility is not the problem.

Maybe folks of color just don't want certain jobs?

The study looks into that.

When is their choices taken into account in this study? Have they charted the applications to these schools to see if anyone is applying in the first place, or is it an "outcome imbalance" that leads to the manufacturing of reasons to explain the differences?

Yes it was deep.
Read the study!

[BassVirolla]

The real question is not if the better would be selected, regardless of ethnicity or background.

The question is how, coming from such background, can someone reach being ellegible for such spots.

If you are born in a family with limited resources you probably can't go to university in first place.

If later in your life you can afford your studies, when you have your degree there are lots of people much younger with much more experience. And while you depend of your work and salary to survive, your timing to get more postgraduates will be much slower than a young guy who still lives with his parents.

It's not where you go, it's where you are coming from.

[Zynerji]

When does the personal responsibility of the folks that want these jobs come into the equation? The hard work, determination and effort that it takes is secondary to the passion necessary to choose that path in the first place.

Best to read the study and your question will be answered. Personal responsibility is not the problem.

Maybe folks of color just don't want certain jobs?

The study looks into that.

When is their choices taken into account in this study? Have they charted the applications to these schools to see if anyone is applying in the first place, or is it an "outcome imbalance" that leads to the manufacturing of reasons to explain the differences?

Yes it was deep.
Read the study!

I'll read it along with all of the Global Warming studies that are on my bookshelf...

It sounds like these "underprivileged" folks have the means to go to college and study and earn degrees in the first place. Maybe they interview badly? I've mentioned here several times that I have fired, or will not hire, a toxic personality as it destroys the team atmosphere. I have no care in the world as to the ethnicity of said folks, I only care about the success impact that they have on the project. You know, a Meritocracy.

[ringo]

I guess you speak for everyone/every business when you say that a certain group of people have more difficulty in securing a job post uni?

I mean its quite frankly impossible for anyone to suggest this is truly the case unless any person applies for every position going and know they dont get the job based on their background or colour.

If I was a employer of a race team (or any business outside of motorsport) and I had a list of 2 candidates shortlisted. Person A - Level 3 in xyz subject, 2 years experience working in xyz company doing apprentice level subject however is white
Person B - Honours in xyz subject, multiple years working as a aerodynamicist (example), looking to further career or fancies a change of workplace however is a person of colour.

I would choose the guy who is more experienced. As a company you'd want the best possible person who is going to be a asset to your team.

Its odd to say that the companies a person has applied for and didn't get the job is solely down to a person's colour, background etc. However I am not a person who is qualified to be in a race team neither do I process any knowledge of it.

You could take football as a prime example of a sport that has a lot of people of colour competing at the highest level. Theres loads of coloured footballers in the premier league for example. If they werent good enough, they wouldnt be competing at one of the highest levels of football. Athletics tournaments on a worldwide scale... You see lots of coloured people competing there.

Whilst you might not agree with my comments, I stand by them as its my own opinion. Whilst I might not have any first hand experience of a coloured person in motorsport, I really do find it hard to believe race teams wouldnt chose not to employ a coloured person from a different culture/background.

Im sure you could go through every race team and their staff, including those behind the scenes, and find numerous people from a range of backgrounds/ethnicities.

Yes, but according to Lewis' study it is big disproportion. This sort of thing is very studied. For example, people always say that Asian students have an affinity for mathematics. They are strong math yes, but why? is it natural? Studies show this level of math ability had a strong relation to their agriculture. Asians tend to the most difficult crops, which require intense commitment and hard tireless work till harvesting time. This culture over thousands of years, created a sort of attitude of "stick-to-it-iveness." Their students to stick to math and keep working on it - so at the end of the day you get a broader net. So you see a high proportion of immigrant Asians in the STEM field in western countries. Note... culture...history conditions... America is currently making moves in how math is administered to its students at all levels to get them more up to speed with the boom in STEM in Asia.

Lewis has noticed the huge dearth of his people in STEM.. his study is to see how the culture...history conditions affect this, and he wants to improve this condition with the HELP of industry players. Help doesn't mean hiring under-qualified people. Most of the time person's have colour have to be exceptional to get the job anyway (like Lewis!)

It's a great study, and a good call for support.

When does the personal responsibility of the folks that want these jobs come into the equation? The hard work, determination and effort that it takes is secondary to the passion necessary to choose that path in the first place.

Maybe folks of color just don't want certain jobs? When is their choices taken into account in this study? Have they charted the applications to these schools to see if anyone is applying in the first place, or is it an "outcome imbalance" that leads to the manufacturing of reasons to explain the differences?

From reading most of the comments. I assume from european white forum members. I can see the ignorance or just complete lack of understanding. You cannot know if you have never experienced structural racism or discrimination. It would take a lot of reasing as well as interacting with people who expereince this and knowing western imperial and colonial history to understand. It's very broad.
But i think to believe Lewis is overreacting or lying is the wrong position to take. It screams of ignorance to look on the current set of drivers as well as the f1 teams thousands of employees and claim they are a diverse group.
as for your comments about football. There are historical reasons as to why there are more coloured people in the more "primal" sports.
example track, boxing, basketball, NFL.
These are easier to access sports and from an entertainnent and commercial point of view these sports were more tolerable for minorities to participate as there is an ownership and trading component. You should read american history on this. Formula 1 and Tennis and golf and so forth are gentle mens' sports. And the other country club sports.
It is not only a matter of people not wanting to participate or not being qualified enough.
I am sure earning millions for whacking a ball on a lawn is something that's not too dificult ro do or unattractive. There is a lot more to what Lewis speaks of that many fail to appreciate because they have never lived it.
But I am glad that the sport is looking into it and not taking the position that some here take, that Lewis is just being idle or asking for too much.

[mkay]

F1 isn't diverse?

20 drivers...You have Mexican , Chinese , Thai , English , Spanish , Australian , Canadian, Monaco, Danish, Dutch, Japanese, German.

Personally I feel its been a 'lonely road' for him is that he never bothers t mingle and have banter with the other drivers on the grid/pits/podiums etc. He just keeps to himself (and Angela). If you dont join in with the group activities/socialism, then you get left out and there's nobody to blame for that but yourself IMHO. It also shouldn't be forgotten about how he got there...funded by Ron Dennis on his 'lonely journey' in F1.

You're right there are lots of nationalities on the grid although most are pretty "western", but in terms of ethnicity, Hamilton is the first and only black driver in F1. I'm not gonna pretend I have any idea what that is like being a white man but I have heard people reference their struggles of being "the only" and it sounds like its probably quite an isolating experience.

I guess. It’s good he’s raising awareness to other black drivers/staff of colour with his campaigns.

However, it does not automatically mean there should be ‘more’ people in the sport.

If someone is qualified/experience lad enough then they can make the cut.

Nothing is stopping anyone from doing any role if they put their mind/heart/soul into it.

This is veering into OT, but his (and others) point is that that it's much harder for POC to get into F1 due to social / economic inequality. I doubt Hamilton is asking for the sport to hire POC regardless of talent or qualification, but he's arguing POC-heavy communities are underfunded from a STEM standpoint, and therefore underrepresented in the end.

[GrizzleBoy]

F1 is, and has always been, a meritocracy. There are, and have been, engineers, team principals, agents, drivers and owners that are considered a minority.

Motorsports have an appeal to the individual, not their race.

Of all of the World's institutions, I will never understand how F1 is in any way brought to ill-repute by these baseless accusations of racism..

Meritocracy?

Mick Schumacher is where he is because of his dad's status in F1.

Verstappen is in F1 because of his dad's influence in F1.

Charles Leclerc is in F1 because of his families links to F1 (Jules Bianchi isn't it?).

Mazepin was in F1 because his dad paid for him to be there.

Stroll is in F1 because his dad bought an entire team.

Latifi is in F1 because he is from a billionaire family and literally paying to drive the car.

George Russels parents are super wealthy.

Nico Rosberg......

Alex Brundle being Martin Brundles son now being a professional racing xommentator.

I could probably go on and on and on.

There are goodness knows how many Fittipaldi's running around Formula series paddocks.

Trying to somehow paint F1 as a sport where all you need is to "get in" is just be good is possibly as naive as you can get.

Minimising the wide ranging and nuanced report Lewis put together regarding access to the sport with a reply like "stop complaining about racism" shows quite a lot of ignorance on many levels.

Money and who you know is almost everything in F1 and when things are run in such a way, it's not exactly a leap to suggest that maybe not everyone has a fair or equal opportunities to get in.