Ferrari F1-75

[GrrG]

[Juzh]

For what it's worth, I didn't see any significant difference from Bahrain until now and I think my assumption on drag difference is still valid

Decent analysis from reddit, thanks for sharing. I've noticed now a new rear wing on RB, looks a bit shallower than before, so that has a drag influence. Still, based on top speeds (323.2 and 316.6km/h) and assumption of 10HP more power of Ferrari, I got Ferrari with 8% more drag. That's very unrealistic in my view, and quite big. If an assumption is Honda being 10-15HP up on Ferrari, then Ferrari has 4-5% more drag. I think that's much closer to be honest.

Ferrari's good acceleration comes from torque, which is in line with their lower engine RPM compared to Honda and Mercedes, so I don't really see that as an indication of higher overall power. Then again, I'm not experienced in telemetry analysis, so I might have all this backwards in my head...

In any case, a lot of it comes from the difference in entire RW design, with RB going for a design that provides a large reduction in drag when DRS flap is open. Ferrari opted otherwise, they are said to bring a new RW for Miami. We might just see them completely level on top speed this weekend.

This assumption was wrong from the beginning. Ferrari power advantage and red bull's vastly lower drag was so plainly obvious already in bahrain. It was for me anyway, digging trough piles of footage, telemetries, sectors, comparisons etc, etc... I came to almost identical conclusion as F1DataAnalysis in this post back in march:
viewtopic.php?p=1047244#p1047244

So both methods, an observational (mine) and more scientific (F1DataAnalysis) converged on a similar result.

One thing that the "twitter analysis" does not consider is the different power deployment strategy of the different power units. It looks to me like Red Bull uses more power at the end of the straight (high speed) while Ferrari uses more power at the beginning (high acceleration). Not taking this into account would lead to underestimate Red Bull drag.

I think it's the gear ratio: this year Ferrari uses shorter gears, similar to Mercedes

Based on pre-season and in-season analysis, it looks like Ferrari uses longer gear than Mercedes (lower rpm for Ferrari). But this is not what I am referring to: I am talking about the different strategy of energy deployment, with Ferrari using more electric power at the beginning of the straight and then clipping at the end. Red Bull on the contrary seems to use their electric power more evenly, with little clipping at the end of the straight. Not taking this difference into account may lead to underestimate Red Bull's drag.

This is just entirely false and I see it thrown around everywhere by layman observers. All engines deploy at maximum power as early as traction allows it, because it's the fastest way to cover any given straight. No one ever uses partial mgu-k deployment on any meaningful straight just to maybe get a few extra kmh on the top end. You'll lose waaay more in the meantime than what you'll gain back on top end. It's been like this since 2014.
The reason you see red bull clipping less than others is because they've got so much less drag and maybe because honda is superior in energy recovery by various means. We're not seeing this performance on alpha tauri though, so this is more a speculation.

[AR3-GP]

For what it's worth, I didn't see any significant difference from Bahrain until now and I think my assumption on drag difference is still valid

Decent analysis from reddit, thanks for sharing. I've noticed now a new rear wing on RB, looks a bit shallower than before, so that has a drag influence. Still, based on top speeds (323.2 and 316.6km/h) and assumption of 10HP more power of Ferrari, I got Ferrari with 8% more drag. That's very unrealistic in my view, and quite big. If an assumption is Honda being 10-15HP up on Ferrari, then Ferrari has 4-5% more drag. I think that's much closer to be honest.

Ferrari's good acceleration comes from torque, which is in line with their lower engine RPM compared to Honda and Mercedes, so I don't really see that as an indication of higher overall power. Then again, I'm not experienced in telemetry analysis, so I might have all this backwards in my head...

In any case, a lot of it comes from the difference in entire RW design, with RB going for a design that provides a large reduction in drag when DRS flap is open. Ferrari opted otherwise, they are said to bring a new RW for Miami. We might just see them completely level on top speed this weekend.

This assumption was wrong from the beginning. Ferrari power advantage and red bull's vastly lower drag was so plainly obvious already in bahrain. It was for me anyway, digging trough piles of footage, telemetries, sectors, comparisons etc, etc... I came to almost identical conclusion as F1DataAnalysis in this post back in march:
viewtopic.php?p=1047244#p1047244

So both methods, an observational (mine) and more scientific (F1DataAnalysis) converged on a similar result.

I think it's the gear ratio: this year Ferrari uses shorter gears, similar to Mercedes

Based on pre-season and in-season analysis, it looks like Ferrari uses longer gear than Mercedes (lower rpm for Ferrari). But this is not what I am referring to: I am talking about the different strategy of energy deployment, with Ferrari using more electric power at the beginning of the straight and then clipping at the end. Red Bull on the contrary seems to use their electric power more evenly, with little clipping at the end of the straight. Not taking this difference into account may lead to underestimate Red Bull's drag.

This is just entirely false and I see it thrown around everywhere by layman observers. All engines deploy at maximum power as early as traction allows it, because it's the fastest way to cover any given straight. No one ever uses partial mgu-k deployment on any meaningful straight just to maybe get a few extra kmh on the top end. You'll lose waaay more in the meantime than what you'll gain back on top end. It's been like this since 2014.
The reason you see red bull clipping less than others is because they've got so much less drag and maybe because honda is superior in energy recovery by various means. We're not seeing this performance on alpha tauri though, so this is more a speculation.

The drag has nothing to do with the clipping. The MGU-K and ES doesnt know or care how much drag the car has. All it knows is to deploy at 120Kw and when to harvest. If the Ferrari is clipping, it’s because they have run out of energy before another recovery zone or the ECU is thermally throttling the deployment. The former is more likely, but in theory, the latter can also occur. We don’t know if they run out of energy or it’s being thermally throttled.

[Andi76]

For what it's worth, I didn't see any significant difference from Bahrain until now and I think my assumption on drag difference is still valid




In any case, a lot of it comes from the difference in entire RW design, with RB going for a design that provides a large reduction in drag when DRS flap is open. Ferrari opted otherwise, they are said to bring a new RW for Miami. We might just see them completely level on top speed this weekend.

One thing that the "twitter analysis" does not consider is the different power deployment strategy of the different power units. It looks to me like Red Bull uses more power at the end of the straight (high speed) while Ferrari uses more power at the beginning (high acceleration). Not taking this into account would lead to underestimate Red Bull drag.

That is correct. For the analysis I considered constant Power and constant Drag, and both are untrue in reality. However, this is the best we can do I think as we don’t know the energy deployment (and D(v)) curves.

I assume it was you, rating my post negatively, because i brought no counterpoints(what is not true, i brought counterpoints why i think your analysis is not representative in the real world in relation to aero-efficiency). Here you are admitting one of the counterpoints yourself. Without starting another discussion - if Red Bulls aero-efficiency would be almost 10% better than the Ferraris, the F1-75 would not be a winning car. Aero is the biggest contributior for lap-time. And 10-15 hp cannot compensate for an aero-efficiency thats 10% worse. F1 cars are very complex and there are many things influencing top-speed, acceleration etc., so you cannot make a statement about aero-efficiency without taking them into account.

What indeed is interesting, and i think this is what your analysis shows perfectly, is that Red Bull and Ferrari have a totally different approach, different concepts and that they have made different trade-offs. It will be interesting to see which one has more potential.

[F1DataAnalysis]

One thing that the "twitter analysis" does not consider is the different power deployment strategy of the different power units. It looks to me like Red Bull uses more power at the end of the straight (high speed) while Ferrari uses more power at the beginning (high acceleration). Not taking this into account would lead to underestimate Red Bull drag.

That is correct. For the analysis I considered constant Power and constant Drag, and both are untrue in reality. However, this is the best we can do I think as we don’t know the energy deployment (and D(v)) curves.

I assume it was you, rating my post negatively, because i brought no counterpoints(what is not true, i brought counterpoints why i think your analysis is not representative in the real world in relation to aero-efficiency). Here you are admitting one of the counterpoints yourself. Without starting another discussion - if Red Bulls aero-efficiency would be almost 10% better than the Ferraris, the F1-75 would not be a winning car. Aero is the biggest contributior for lap-time. And 10-15 hp cannot compensate for an aero-efficiency thats 10% worse. F1 cars are very complex and there are many things influencing top-speed, acceleration etc., so you cannot make a statement about aero-efficiency without taking them into account.

What indeed is interesting, and i think this is what your analysis shows perfectly, is that Red Bull and Ferrari have a totally different approach, different concepts and that they have made different trade-offs. It will be interesting to see which one has more potential.

I did not give you a downvote - in fact, given that I post rarely and have never given a downvote I thought that downvotes were public. I don’t know who did that.

My conclusion is not that RB has 9% better efficiency than Ferrari, it is is that, IN BAHRAIN, they had 9% less DRAG! They had less downforce too, as one can see by the lower speed in the fast corners. I suspect that in Bahrain they still had an efficiency advantage, but that was much lower than 9% (due to the lower downforce). They simply went for a lower downforce setup, and they have a lower-drag concept too

[Vanja #66]

This assumption was wrong from the beginning. Ferrari power advantage and red bull's vastly lower drag was so plainly obvious already in bahrain.

Then Ferrari must have found 100HP more to get near equal with RB in Imola...



I don't think people understand how big of a difference 9-10% in drag is and what it would imply. Even if it was 9-10% with different DRS flaps.

[saviour stivala]

Yes. RB and FERRARI have a different approach with the resultant different trade-offs. At end of the day at the last race at Imola the results which were stretched like a rubber band by most of the reporting F1 media. The actual facts, there were very little differences between RB and FERRARI both at speed-trap and finishing line top speeds. Deployment ‘K’, There was also near equivalent deployment time between the two PU.S, with FERRARI opting to start deploy much earlier than RB did which resulted in FERRARI clipping much earlier than RB did. This particular deployment strategy of chose by FERRARI was interpreted as a weakness by said media reporting. Skipping the fact that the resultant respective top speeds were very near identical, the race final results have certainly send the said media reporting into overdrive distorted mode. The real facts up to the fourth race of the season are that FERRARI racing virtually the same car as at the end of last winter testing and with the most porpiosing of all on the grid ended up leading both drivers and constructers championships.

[Andi76]

That is correct. For the analysis I considered constant Power and constant Drag, and both are untrue in reality. However, this is the best we can do I think as we don’t know the energy deployment (and D(v)) curves.

I assume it was you, rating my post negatively, because i brought no counterpoints(what is not true, i brought counterpoints why i think your analysis is not representative in the real world in relation to aero-efficiency). Here you are admitting one of the counterpoints yourself. Without starting another discussion - if Red Bulls aero-efficiency would be almost 10% better than the Ferraris, the F1-75 would not be a winning car. Aero is the biggest contributior for lap-time. And 10-15 hp cannot compensate for an aero-efficiency thats 10% worse. F1 cars are very complex and there are many things influencing top-speed, acceleration etc., so you cannot make a statement about aero-efficiency without taking them into account.

What indeed is interesting, and i think this is what your analysis shows perfectly, is that Red Bull and Ferrari have a totally different approach, different concepts and that they have made different trade-offs. It will be interesting to see which one has more potential.

I did not give you a downvote - in fact, given that I post rarely and have never given a downvote I thought that downvotes were public. I don’t know who did that.

My conclusion is not that RB has 9% better efficiency than Ferrari, it is is that, IN BAHRAIN, they had 9% less DRAG! They had less downforce too, as one can see by the lower speed in the fast corners. I suspect that in Bahrain they still had an efficiency advantage, but that was much lower than 9% (due to the lower downforce). They simply went for a lower downforce setup, and they have a lower-drag concept too

I hope you accept my excuse thinking it was you. But it does not matter anyway.

Even if i still do not agree with the 9%less drag(as this is really a lot), you are definetely right about the choice of set-up. Regarding the lower drag-concept - we will never be able to be sure about that. I still think Ferrari has a low drag concept. Thats why they get away with more downforce rear wings. But thats my opinion only, as i do not have the time to do a proper analysis in that regard, with data and observations available. You did that, so i am the one to be wrong probably.

[Juzh]

This assumption was wrong from the beginning. Ferrari power advantage and red bull's vastly lower drag was so plainly obvious already in bahrain.

Then Ferrari must have found 100HP more to get near equal with RB in Imola...

https://i.ibb.co/xqZW5zX/emiliaromagna-2022.jpg

I don't think people understand how big of a difference 9-10% in drag is and what it would imply. Even if it was 9-10% with different DRS flaps.

But now we're talking about a different track You see I've not talked about efficiency because after all RB did have less downforce (and less drag). But even then, I don't think anything has changed since bahrain apart from red bull running higher wing angles in some races and being less top speed dominant as a result. Ferrari still had that little more power and red bull still had less drag on the top end, but difference was less pronounced as in bahrain or jeddah where it was getting silly. Also you can't use race speed traps as a measure of anything with slipstream tactics, overtake buttons overriding pre-set values and so on. Only by careful sifting trough data can you differentiate between noise and information that's actually useful (speed trap charts are definitely not).

[Juzh]

For what it's worth, I didn't see any significant difference from Bahrain until now and I think my assumption on drag difference is still valid




In any case, a lot of it comes from the difference in entire RW design, with RB going for a design that provides a large reduction in drag when DRS flap is open. Ferrari opted otherwise, they are said to bring a new RW for Miami. We might just see them completely level on top speed this weekend.

This assumption was wrong from the beginning. Ferrari power advantage and red bull's vastly lower drag was so plainly obvious already in bahrain. It was for me anyway, digging trough piles of footage, telemetries, sectors, comparisons etc, etc... I came to almost identical conclusion as F1DataAnalysis in this post back in march:
viewtopic.php?p=1047244#p1047244

So both methods, an observational (mine) and more scientific (F1DataAnalysis) converged on a similar result.

Based on pre-season and in-season analysis, it looks like Ferrari uses longer gear than Mercedes (lower rpm for Ferrari). But this is not what I am referring to: I am talking about the different strategy of energy deployment, with Ferrari using more electric power at the beginning of the straight and then clipping at the end. Red Bull on the contrary seems to use their electric power more evenly, with little clipping at the end of the straight. Not taking this difference into account may lead to underestimate Red Bull's drag.

This is just entirely false and I see it thrown around everywhere by layman observers. All engines deploy at maximum power as early as traction allows it, because it's the fastest way to cover any given straight. No one ever uses partial mgu-k deployment on any meaningful straight just to maybe get a few extra kmh on the top end. You'll lose waaay more in the meantime than what you'll gain back on top end. It's been like this since 2014.
The reason you see red bull clipping less than others is because they've got so much less drag and maybe because honda is superior in energy recovery by various means. We're not seeing this performance on alpha tauri though, so this is more a speculation.

The drag has nothing to do with the clipping. The MGU-K and ES doesnt know or care how much drag the car has. All it knows is to deploy at 120Kw and when to harvest. If the Ferrari is clipping, it’s because they have run out of energy before another recovery zone or the ECU is thermally throttling the deployment. The former is more likely, but in theory, the latter can also occur. We don’t know if they run out of energy or it’s being thermally throttled.

Haha, obviously not, but if you've got less drag then you cover the straights faster while using less overall energy to do so and this can add up when your car is significantly more slippery than competition.

We don’t know if they run out of energy or it’s being thermally throttled.

Literally the first time I've heard of thermal throttling on the mgu-k/CE on an f1 car since 2014 (there were problems on RB kers back in v8 days but thats it). You have any links to these things ever being talked about?

[GrrG]

[Vanja #66]

But now we're talking about a different track

I agree But again, cutting that amount of drag with small changes to wing size and angles is even harder than having such a big difference in the first place. Remember, tyres amount for more than 45% of overall drag on these cars, maybe even half. The entire chassis is just over a half of the whole drag and rear wing even less. So lowering rear wing drag by 10% between two configurations amounts to only 1-1.5% (less than 2% for sure) for the whole car. And those 2% are a lot for the car's performance.

[GrrG]

Fw Imola

Fw Miami


https://it.motorsport.com/f1/news/f1-fe ... /10296103/

[mclaren111]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FRW23izXwAI ... me=900x900

Looks very similar to McLaren's...

[Blackout]

It's a common rear brake outlet design since many seasons.