Ferrari F1-75

[AR3-GP]

This assumption was wrong from the beginning. Ferrari power advantage and red bull's vastly lower drag was so plainly obvious already in bahrain. It was for me anyway, digging trough piles of footage, telemetries, sectors, comparisons etc, etc... I came to almost identical conclusion as F1DataAnalysis in this post back in march:
viewtopic.php?p=1047244#p1047244

So both methods, an observational (mine) and more scientific (F1DataAnalysis) converged on a similar result.


This is just entirely false and I see it thrown around everywhere by layman observers. All engines deploy at maximum power as early as traction allows it, because it's the fastest way to cover any given straight. No one ever uses partial mgu-k deployment on any meaningful straight just to maybe get a few extra kmh on the top end. You'll lose waaay more in the meantime than what you'll gain back on top end. It's been like this since 2014.
The reason you see red bull clipping less than others is because they've got so much less drag and maybe because honda is superior in energy recovery by various means. We're not seeing this performance on alpha tauri though, so this is more a speculation.

The drag has nothing to do with the clipping. The MGU-K and ES doesnt know or care how much drag the car has. All it knows is to deploy at 120Kw and when to harvest. If the Ferrari is clipping, it’s because they have run out of energy before another recovery zone or the ECU is thermally throttling the deployment. The former is more likely, but in theory, the latter can also occur. We don’t know if they run out of energy or it’s being thermally throttled.

Haha, obviously not, but if you've got less drag then you cover the straights faster while using less overall energy to do so and this can add up when your car is significantly more slippery than competition.

We don’t know if they run out of energy or it’s being thermally throttled.

Literally the first time I've heard of thermal throttling on the mgu-k/CE on an f1 car since 2014 (there were problems on RB kers back in v8 days but thats it). You have any links to these things ever being talked about?

A few points.

1) Your explanation about “using less energy to do so” is incorrect. Both cars are deploying at 120Kw for a fixed amount of time. The product of the power and the deployment time governs the “energy used”. Drag has absolutely zilch to do with the energy spent by the ERS when going down the straight. However, there is a small effect in that drag consumes energy irreversibly, which reduces the total accessible energy available to be recovered at the end of the straight, but consider that most the braking energy is being lost irreversibly in the front axle so whatever marginally larger energy content that is accessible, is still dwarfed by the amount being wasted on the mechanical front brakes.

2) As for the latter point about the thermal throttling, I clearly stated in the post that I don’t know (I.e I made it up). I didn’t say this is what Ferrari claim.

[matteosc]

For what it's worth, I didn't see any significant difference from Bahrain until now and I think my assumption on drag difference is still valid




In any case, a lot of it comes from the difference in entire RW design, with RB going for a design that provides a large reduction in drag when DRS flap is open. Ferrari opted otherwise, they are said to bring a new RW for Miami. We might just see them completely level on top speed this weekend.

This assumption was wrong from the beginning. Ferrari power advantage and red bull's vastly lower drag was so plainly obvious already in bahrain. It was for me anyway, digging trough piles of footage, telemetries, sectors, comparisons etc, etc... I came to almost identical conclusion as F1DataAnalysis in this post back in march:
viewtopic.php?p=1047244#p1047244

So both methods, an observational (mine) and more scientific (F1DataAnalysis) converged on a similar result.

Based on pre-season and in-season analysis, it looks like Ferrari uses longer gear than Mercedes (lower rpm for Ferrari). But this is not what I am referring to: I am talking about the different strategy of energy deployment, with Ferrari using more electric power at the beginning of the straight and then clipping at the end. Red Bull on the contrary seems to use their electric power more evenly, with little clipping at the end of the straight. Not taking this difference into account may lead to underestimate Red Bull's drag.

This is just entirely false and I see it thrown around everywhere by layman observers. All engines deploy at maximum power as early as traction allows it, because it's the fastest way to cover any given straight. No one ever uses partial mgu-k deployment on any meaningful straight just to maybe get a few extra kmh on the top end. You'll lose waaay more in the meantime than what you'll gain back on top end. It's been like this since 2014.
The reason you see red bull clipping less than others is because they've got so much less drag and maybe because honda is superior in energy recovery by various means. We're not seeing this performance on alpha tauri though, so this is more a speculation.

The drag has nothing to do with the clipping. The MGU-K and ES doesnt know or care how much drag the car has. All it knows is to deploy at 120Kw and when to harvest. If the Ferrari is clipping, it’s because they have run out of energy before another recovery zone or the ECU is thermally throttling the deployment. The former is more likely, but in theory, the latter can also occur. We don’t know if they run out of energy or it’s being thermally throttled.

I am extremely surprised by what you are saying. It is well known that MGU-H and MGU-K deployment is different for each team and this results in different acceleration curves. Yes, ideally you want to use power immediately out of the turn, as soon as you have traction and keep it using as long as you can. Unfortunately the "as long as you can" depends on how much electric power you have available and where in the lap you decide to use it. So no, not all team have the same amount of power used by MGU-K in a certain straight portion of the lap. Not to mention MUG-H, which has way more complicated energy flows.

Also, I am not saying that drag depends on clipping. What I am saying is that if you try to extrapolate the drag of two cars, one clipping and one not clipping, you end up with results which are not comparable and accurate.

[AR3-GP]

This assumption was wrong from the beginning. Ferrari power advantage and red bull's vastly lower drag was so plainly obvious already in bahrain. It was for me anyway, digging trough piles of footage, telemetries, sectors, comparisons etc, etc... I came to almost identical conclusion as F1DataAnalysis in this post back in march:
viewtopic.php?p=1047244#p1047244

So both methods, an observational (mine) and more scientific (F1DataAnalysis) converged on a similar result.


This is just entirely false and I see it thrown around everywhere by layman observers. All engines deploy at maximum power as early as traction allows it, because it's the fastest way to cover any given straight. No one ever uses partial mgu-k deployment on any meaningful straight just to maybe get a few extra kmh on the top end. You'll lose waaay more in the meantime than what you'll gain back on top end. It's been like this since 2014.
The reason you see red bull clipping less than others is because they've got so much less drag and maybe because honda is superior in energy recovery by various means. We're not seeing this performance on alpha tauri though, so this is more a speculation.

The drag has nothing to do with the clipping. The MGU-K and ES doesnt know or care how much drag the car has. All it knows is to deploy at 120Kw and when to harvest. If the Ferrari is clipping, it’s because they have run out of energy before another recovery zone or the ECU is thermally throttling the deployment. The former is more likely, but in theory, the latter can also occur. We don’t know if they run out of energy or it’s being thermally throttled.

I am extremely surprised by what you are saying. It is well known that MGU-H and MGU-K deployment is different for each team and this results in different acceleration curves. Yes, ideally you want to use power immediately out of the turn, as soon as you have traction and keep it using as long as you can. Unfortunately the "as long as you can" depends on how much electric power you have available and where in the lap you decide to use it. So no, not all team have the same amount of power used by MGU-K in a certain straight portion of the lap. Not to mention MUG-H, which has way more complicated energy flows.

Also, I am not saying that drag depends on clipping. What I am saying is that if you try to extrapolate the drag of two cars, one clipping and one not clipping, you end up with results which are not comparable and accurate.

The curve fit is a model for the actual behavior. When the dataset can be predicted by the curve fit with good agreement, it shows that the assumptions in the model, are reasonably representative. Author reported 0.97 R^2 for the fit which shows that the assumptions of constant power and constant drag coefficient are reasonable. A similar process was used to discover Newton's second law (F = ma).

You are correct that it's possible that the Ferrari may "clip" at the end of the straight. But the way the regression and r^2 metrics work will tell you how significant "clipping" is. If the ERS clips for a consequential amount of time, the curve fit would have a poor r-square value. That's the beauty of the regression method. Significant deviations from the assumptions made in the model will show by a poor r-square value. In this car, there are no such problems. Because the model fits the data so well, it shows the car can be approximated as having constant power and constant drag.

[matteosc]

The drag has nothing to do with the clipping. The MGU-K and ES doesnt know or care how much drag the car has. All it knows is to deploy at 120Kw and when to harvest. If the Ferrari is clipping, it’s because they have run out of energy before another recovery zone or the ECU is thermally throttling the deployment. The former is more likely, but in theory, the latter can also occur. We don’t know if they run out of energy or it’s being thermally throttled.

I am extremely surprised by what you are saying. It is well known that MGU-H and MGU-K deployment is different for each team and this results in different acceleration curves. Yes, ideally you want to use power immediately out of the turn, as soon as you have traction and keep it using as long as you can. Unfortunately the "as long as you can" depends on how much electric power you have available and where in the lap you decide to use it. So no, not all team have the same amount of power used by MGU-K in a certain straight portion of the lap. Not to mention MUG-H, which has way more complicated energy flows.

Also, I am not saying that drag depends on clipping. What I am saying is that if you try to extrapolate the drag of two cars, one clipping and one not clipping, you end up with results which are not comparable and accurate.

The curve fit is a model for the actual behavior. When the dataset can be predicted by the curve fit with good agreement, it shows that the assumptions in the model, are reasonably representative. Author reported 0.97 R^2 for the fit which shows that the assumptions of constant power and constant drag coefficient are reasonable. A similar process was used to discover Newton's second law (F = ma).

You are correct that it's possible that the Ferrari may "clip" at the end of the straight. But the way the regression and r^2 metrics work will tell you how significant "clipping" is. If the ERS clips for a consequential amount of time, the curve fit would have a poor r-square value. That's the beauty of the regression method. Significant deviations from the assumptions made in the model will show by a poor r-square value. In this car, there are no such problems.

I mostly agree with you, but even with a good r-square value, the regression may still mix causes that have similar effects. For example the coefficient of the drag portion will capture anything which goes with the square of the speed, whether it is the proper drag or not.
I think that the assumption of the analysis are perfectly reasonable and it gives a good "average" idea of where the teams are in terms of power and drag, but it has of course its limitations (not even the teams themselves are 100% sure of how they compare with others).

[F1NAC]

Any pics of new RW?

[JordanMugen]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FSD8pPBXEAE ... me=900x900

Is that sphericals and not flexures? Does that mean that flexures are only used on the front?

[Andi76]

I am extremely surprised by what you are saying. It is well known that MGU-H and MGU-K deployment is different for each team and this results in different acceleration curves. Yes, ideally you want to use power immediately out of the turn, as soon as you have traction and keep it using as long as you can. Unfortunately the "as long as you can" depends on how much electric power you have available and where in the lap you decide to use it. So no, not all team have the same amount of power used by MGU-K in a certain straight portion of the lap. Not to mention MUG-H, which has way more complicated energy flows.

Also, I am not saying that drag depends on clipping. What I am saying is that if you try to extrapolate the drag of two cars, one clipping and one not clipping, you end up with results which are not comparable and accurate.

The curve fit is a model for the actual behavior. When the dataset can be predicted by the curve fit with good agreement, it shows that the assumptions in the model, are reasonably representative. Author reported 0.97 R^2 for the fit which shows that the assumptions of constant power and constant drag coefficient are reasonable. A similar process was used to discover Newton's second law (F = ma).

You are correct that it's possible that the Ferrari may "clip" at the end of the straight. But the way the regression and r^2 metrics work will tell you how significant "clipping" is. If the ERS clips for a consequential amount of time, the curve fit would have a poor r-square value. That's the beauty of the regression method. Significant deviations from the assumptions made in the model will show by a poor r-square value. In this car, there are no such problems.

I mostly agree with you, but even with a good r-square value, the regression may still mix causes that have similar effects. For example the coefficient of the drag portion will capture anything which goes with the square of the speed, whether it is the proper drag or not.
I think that the assumption of the analysis are perfectly reasonable and it gives a good "average" idea of where the teams are in terms of power and drag, but it has of course its limitations (not even the teams themselves are 100% sure of how they compare with others).

I do not see a way how it is possible, on a track with 61% full throttle, to achieve the same lap time with a car that has almost 10% more drag if it does not have a power advantage of 60-70 hp. So - assuming this analysis is giving a good idea where the teams are in terms of drag - Ferrari either has 60-70 hp more than Honda, or Ferrari has a huge secret not yet revealed. With 10% more drag and a power advantage of 10-15 hp "only" - i do not see any way.

[matteosc]

The curve fit is a model for the actual behavior. When the dataset can be predicted by the curve fit with good agreement, it shows that the assumptions in the model, are reasonably representative. Author reported 0.97 R^2 for the fit which shows that the assumptions of constant power and constant drag coefficient are reasonable. A similar process was used to discover Newton's second law (F = ma).

You are correct that it's possible that the Ferrari may "clip" at the end of the straight. But the way the regression and r^2 metrics work will tell you how significant "clipping" is. If the ERS clips for a consequential amount of time, the curve fit would have a poor r-square value. That's the beauty of the regression method. Significant deviations from the assumptions made in the model will show by a poor r-square value. In this car, there are no such problems.

I mostly agree with you, but even with a good r-square value, the regression may still mix causes that have similar effects. For example the coefficient of the drag portion will capture anything which goes with the square of the speed, whether it is the proper drag or not.
I think that the assumption of the analysis are perfectly reasonable and it gives a good "average" idea of where the teams are in terms of power and drag, but it has of course its limitations (not even the teams themselves are 100% sure of how they compare with others).

In general it is not possible on a track with 61% full throttle to achieve the same lap time with a car that has almost 10% more drag if it does not have a power advantage of 60-70 hp. So - assuming this analysis is giving a good idea where the teams are in terms of drag - Ferrari either has 60-70 hp more than Honda, or Ferrari has a huge secret not yet revealed.

I think we are saying similar things. I said that the analysis is interesting and has reasonable assumptions, but it may miss some key factors that leads to underestimate Red Bull drag.

[GrrG]

[organic]

That looks the same specification as before to my eyes. Maybe they plan to run with Charles having the new wing?

[dialtone]

No porpoising, and no rounded braking points from Ferrari. Will have to see in the rest of the weekend but to me it seems that the speed scrubbing at end of straights from Ferrari was indeed porpoising, now corners are sharp since car wasn't jumping around.

[matteosc]

https://i.imgur.com/iqkn1iQ.jpeg

No porpoising, and no rounded braking points from Ferrari. Will have to see in the rest of the weekend but to me it seems that the speed scrubbing at end of straights from Ferrari was indeed porpoising, now corners are sharp since car wasn't jumping around.

Red Bull still looks incredibly fast in the straights. We will see how the teams evolve their setups and when they "unlock" the full power for the weekend, but once again RB seems to go with low downforce and very low drag approach.

[miguelalvesreis]

Fw Imola

Fw Miami


https://it.motorsport.com/f1/news/f1-fe ... /10296103/

What's going on on the nose?

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[Owen.C93]

Shadow.

[miguelalvesreis]

Shadow.

The wing connection seems different and the Ferrari logo seems to follow the shadow! But you're probably right

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