Mercedes W13

[Andi76]

Haha, yes, let's randomly select quotes to shade it one way or another. At least you finally admit your eye CFD is useless and this is just a position you've hunkered down onto without anything to show for it.
His model was an attempt, albeit one that wasnt representative.

I think anyone can judge by himself and take a look at the F1-75 sidepods thread and read how the discussion has ended. And it was definetely not like you tried to make it seem. Like in this thread you, the so called "arm-chair"-expert(not my words), you are doing the same thing here again. Its basically the same discussion. And the outcome will be the same anyway - so its wasted energy. It makes no sense to repeat a discussion that was already there, especially when it is obvious that it will end the same way.

So finally - i did not admit anything. Just because you make the same conclusions like other people- does this mean you have hunkered down on something? No, definetely not, so that was a pretty weak attempt. Pretty weak. And you should not complain about "without anything to show for it", you never showed anything while others based their conclusions on CFD simulations. Whats more representative? Conclusions based on CFD simulations or conclusions based on nothing? And thats also something everybody can easily research in the F1-75 sidepod thread. And the claim that Merc is low drag - i think anyone remembers Toto complaining about W13s drag...so- no further comment and the best arguement to stop this "discussion", that seems to be more about hurt feelings and pride because someone sees things differently than you would like them to be. And this forum is not the place for things like that.

[Vanja #66]

Couldn't help but notice my name being mentioned more than once recently in this thread, in some cases way out of context and again without any actual argument to demonstrate I was/am/will be wrong about whatever.

So, please don't mind me not having the time to go over all of it, I will only repeat what I've already said earlier about top 3 cars this year:

- I claimed launch-spec W13 carries at least 5% more drag than launch-spec F1-75, still do and sadly we won't see how it behaves compared to other cars since team obviously chose to keep going with zero-pods

- I gave an opinion that zero-pods + wing-mirror are not that low on drag on their own and overall, as the wing has a high installation angle and induces strong form drag as well as a strong tip vortex

- I didn't quantify if launch-spec sidepods are higher on drag than the complete zero-pod design, sadly I still don't have the time to do it

- Wolff stated that W13 carried more drag in Bahrain than the other two cars; as this was a clear statement it must have been very evident and undoubtedly clear to them that their car has too much drag overall

Now, with more races going by we have a clearer picture on the power output of all 3 cars as well (F1-75 on top, RB 5HP less and W13 no more than 10HP less) we can safely assume W13 had about 7% more drag with DRS open than RB18 in Bahrain, which was closest to launch spec even with sidepods changed. As Merc and RB have similar RW flap surface opening and whatnot, we can also say most of this drag difference came from the rest of the car. That means chassis+sidepods+tyres+FW, just to be clear.

The fact that W13 chassis w/o RW isn't low drag showed this weekend again, when W13 wasn't that much faster on straights even with significantly smaller RW compared to RB18 and F1-75. RW choice and DRS flap geometry for each race this year proved to be the biggest differentiators when it came to overall drag, ie top speed of each car. As I said at the time, I took launch RW + airbox geometry and CFD results with launch sidepods of W13 into account when I stated the infamous 5% number back in the winter. 6 races later, everything points to the same conclusion, even with completely different sidepods of W13 compared to launch spec.

[Henri]

Couldn't help but notice my name being mentioned more than once recently in this thread, in some cases way out of context and again without any actual argument to demonstrate I was/am/will be wrong about whatever.

So, please don't mind me not having the time to go over all of it, I will only repeat what I've already said earlier about top 3 cars this year:

- I claimed launch-spec W13 carries at least 5% more drag than launch-spec F1-75, still do and sadly we won't see how it behaves compared to other cars since team obviously chose to keep going with zero-pods

- I gave an opinion that zero-pods + wing-mirror are not that low on drag on their own and overall, as the wing has a high installation angle and induces strong form drag as well as a strong tip vortex

- I didn't quantify if launch-spec sidepods are higher on drag than the complete zero-pod design, sadly I still don't have the time to do it

- Wolff stated that W13 carried more drag in Bahrain than the other two cars; as this was a clear statement it must have been very evident and undoubtedly clear to them that their car has too much drag overall

Now, with more races going by we have a clearer picture on the power output of all 3 cars as well (F1-75 on top, RB 5HP less and W13 no more than 10HP less) we can safely assume W13 had about 7% more drag with DRS open than RB18 in Bahrain, which was closest to launch spec even with sidepods changed. As Merc and RB have similar RW flap surface opening and whatnot, we can also say most of this drag difference came from the rest of the car. That means chassis+sidepods+tyres+FW, just to be clear.

The fact that W13 chassis w/o RW isn't low drag showed this weekend again, when W13 wasn't that much faster on straights even with significantly smaller RW compared to RB18 and F1-75. RW choice and DRS flap geometry for each race this year proved to be the biggest differentiators when it came to overall drag, ie top speed of each car. As I said at the time, I took launch RW + airbox geometry and CFD results with launch sidepods of W13 into account when I stated the infamous 5% number back in the winter. 6 races later, everything points to the same conclusion, even with completely different sidepods of W13 compared to launch spec.

How many tenths penalty is 5% drag 2 tenths on the straights ??

[Goblin42]

Mercedes W13 floor entrance with the new bib

[VacuousFlamboyant]

Seriously guys, this is getting annoying. Toto said the car was draggy in the 1st race, long before the updates to reduce porpoising that, indeed, produces lots of drag. And the wings were overkill. What's the point of discussing this right now? Merc didn't fix porpoising altogether. We can extrapolate with data, but until the concept is not fully achieved, we can't judge its merits with confidence.

Vanja's model was an interpretation of the regulations and it was a great analysis as it goes to show the decisions some teams may have faced in pre-season. Nonetheless, they are constantly evolving their cars. We would need 3d models that are up to date. Not to mention the decision to follow one concept over another was likely based on circuit characteristics, surface friction drag and weight distribution may oftet some of the disavantages under certain conditions.

[NoDivergence]

Couldn't help but notice my name being mentioned more than once recently in this thread, in some cases way out of context and again without any actual argument to demonstrate I was/am/will be wrong about whatever.

So, please don't mind me not having the time to go over all of it, I will only repeat what I've already said earlier about top 3 cars this year:

- I claimed launch-spec W13 carries at least 5% more drag than launch-spec F1-75, still do and sadly we won't see how it behaves compared to other cars since team obviously chose to keep going with zero-pods

- I gave an opinion that zero-pods + wing-mirror are not that low on drag on their own and overall, as the wing has a high installation angle and induces strong form drag as well as a strong tip vortex

- I didn't quantify if launch-spec sidepods are higher on drag than the complete zero-pod design, sadly I still don't have the time to do it

- Wolff stated that W13 carried more drag in Bahrain than the other two cars; as this was a clear statement it must have been very evident and undoubtedly clear to them that their car has too much drag overall

Now, with more races going by we have a clearer picture on the power output of all 3 cars as well (F1-75 on top, RB 5HP less and W13 no more than 10HP less) we can safely assume W13 had about 7% more drag with DRS open than RB18 in Bahrain, which was closest to launch spec even with sidepods changed. As Merc and RB have similar RW flap surface opening and whatnot, we can also say most of this drag difference came from the rest of the car. That means chassis+sidepods+tyres+FW, just to be clear.

The fact that W13 chassis w/o RW isn't low drag showed this weekend again, when W13 wasn't that much faster on straights even with significantly smaller RW compared to RB18 and F1-75. RW choice and DRS flap geometry for each race this year proved to be the biggest differentiators when it came to overall drag, ie top speed of each car. As I said at the time, I took launch RW + airbox geometry and CFD results with launch sidepods of W13 into account when I stated the infamous 5% number back in the winter. 6 races later, everything points to the same conclusion, even with completely different sidepods of W13 compared to launch spec.

Mercedes were running the car super high to mitigate porpoising and had the biggest wings of anyone out there in the top 3. To the point where they took a saw to the wing. Laptimes (and even straight speeds due to final corner exit speed) are greatly affected by tires.

From Allison, it is rear wing that results in the drag deficit as far as the early talk regarding the car being too draggy.
https://www.sportskeeda.com/f1/news-mer ... it-bahrain

[PlatinumZealot]

A lot of the drag was from running the car in a bad ride height range.

I think the top speed was quite good in Barcalona. George could easily keep perez behind and he had the fastest sector 1 in qualifying.

It coincides well with the new wing and the ride height settings.

Still too early to say if the concept is draggier. Spa and Monza should be good tracks to tell because the teams would have gotten on top of understanding their cars by then.

[HungarianRacer]

... The fact that W13 chassis w/o RW isn't low drag showed this weekend again, when W13 wasn't that much faster on straights even with significantly smaller RW compared to RB18 and F1-75. RW choice and DRS flap geometry for each race this year proved to be the biggest differentiators when it came to overall drag, ie top speed of each car. As I said at the time, I took launch RW + airbox geometry and CFD results with launch sidepods of W13 into account when I stated the infamous 5% number back in the winter. 6 races later, everything points to the same conclusion, even with completely different sidepods of W13 compared to launch spec.

[dialtone]

... The fact that W13 chassis w/o RW isn't low drag showed this weekend again, when W13 wasn't that much faster on straights even with significantly smaller RW compared to RB18 and F1-75. RW choice and DRS flap geometry for each race this year proved to be the biggest differentiators when it came to overall drag, ie top speed of each car. As I said at the time, I took launch RW + airbox geometry and CFD results with launch sidepods of W13 into account when I stated the infamous 5% number back in the winter. 6 races later, everything points to the same conclusion, even with completely different sidepods of W13 compared to launch spec...

Nice pics!

I shared the average lap through the race graph in the race thread, I think this really proves some of the points I made there. Lewis was running more DF in the race as their top speed on average was very slow, like 15k sloweron both DRS straights. He wasn’t faster in T6-7-8 but overall preserved the tyres very well.

Looking at your pics, plus the size of rear wing from RBR and Ferrari that I shared in the car comparison thread I would venture Ferrari is creating the most DF from floor and sidepods vs wing, then RedBull and then Merc.

[PlatinumZealot]

... The fact that W13 chassis w/o RW isn't low drag showed this weekend again, when W13 wasn't that much faster on straights even with significantly smaller RW compared to RB18 and F1-75. RW choice and DRS flap geometry for each race this year proved to be the biggest differentiators when it came to overall drag, ie top speed of each car. As I said at the time, I took launch RW + airbox geometry and CFD results with launch sidepods of W13 into account when I stated the infamous 5% number back in the winter. 6 races later, everything points to the same conclusion, even with completely different sidepods of W13 compared to launch spec.

https://i.imgur.com/6LinfjR.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/l1HMlxG.jpg

Nice. Evidence! This is the way!

[PlatinumZealot]

... The fact that W13 chassis w/o RW isn't low drag showed this weekend again, when W13 wasn't that much faster on straights even with significantly smaller RW compared to RB18 and F1-75. RW choice and DRS flap geometry for each race this year proved to be the biggest differentiators when it came to overall drag, ie top speed of each car. As I said at the time, I took launch RW + airbox geometry and CFD results with launch sidepods of W13 into account when I stated the infamous 5% number back in the winter. 6 races later, everything points to the same conclusion, even with completely different sidepods of W13 compared to launch spec...

https://i.imgur.com/6LinfjR.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/l1HMlxG.jpg

Nice pics!

I shared the average lap through the race graph in the race thread, I think this really proves some of the points I made there. Lewis was running more DF in the race as their top speed on average was very slow, like 15k sloweron both DRS straights. He wasn’t faster in T6-7-8 but overall preserved the tyres very well.

Looking at your pics, plus the size of rear wing from RBR and Ferrari that I shared in the car comparison thread I would venture Ferrari is creating the most DF from floor and sidepods vs wing, then RedBull and then Merc.

On the onboard feed, Lewis was told to cool the car from Lap 7 and from the world feed, George a little later after that. So that might explain why the end of straight speed was so terrible. Lift and coasting more than normal.

[AR3-GP]

Ominous. Merc has ended their porpoising with shocking effectiveness. It remains to be seen what this looks like when they can lap as quick as Ferrari/RB though. After all, one would have to conclude that the reason Mercedes has a half second deficit in qualy or in a race is because they are lacking aero. Otherwise there is no reason for them to be half second off.

For many teams, porpoising is present and shows evidence of increasing as the fuel mass burns off (so basically a damping effect). For Mercedes, the porpoising amplitude appears completely decoupled from fuel mass. There's a small upward trend due to the fuel loss, but it's a much weaker correlation than most other teams.

[Marty_Y]

https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/arti ... glT7h.html

TECH TUESDAY: Have Mercedes finally cracked their porpoising issue with Barcelona upgrade package?

Special contributor
Mark Hughes

[etusch]

Teams are changing wings from race to race according to df demand. But I don't know if they are doing same with floor which is main df part for now. I am not sure if merc's porpoising solution is lesser df from floor with new floor and more df from wings.

[AR3-GP]

Teams are changing wings from race to race according to df demand. But I don't know if they are doing same with floor which is main df part for now. I am not sure if merc's porpoising solution is lesser df from floor with new floor and more df from wings.

Rideheight can tweak the floor load.