Mercedes W13

[Marble]

Good thread about Merc's weekend (posted before the race) :
(in French, but translate works well)

[Andi76]

Hamiltonsay front downforce is great, but resr downforce is lacking in Monaco.

Could be that the side pod wing does not work well at low speeds? Or maybe the floor just needs more tweaking?

I think dampers with less travel were part of Mercedes solution to solve their porpoising issue. This limited them on how soft they can go at the rear and this resulted in a lack of mechanical grip. But on the other hand Hamilton should be able to recognize the lack of mechanical grip and lack of downforce at the rear of course. So if there really was a lack of downforce at the rear, it suggests that there might be an aero-problem in that aera that i do not want to bring up again.

[AeroDynamic]

[Shakeman]

Hamiltonsay front downforce is great, but resr downforce is lacking in Monaco.

Could be that the side pod wing does not work well at low speeds? Or maybe the floor just needs more tweaking?

I think dampers with less travel were part of Mercedes solution to solve their porpoising issue. This limited them on how soft they can go at the rear and this resulted in a lack of mechanical grip. But on the other hand Hamilton should be able to recognize the lack of mechanical grip and lack of downforce at the rear of course. So if there really was a lack of downforce at the rear, it suggests that there might be an aero-problem in that aera that i do not want to bring up again.

Did Hamilton actually say those words attributed to him? I bet he meant low speed rear end mechanical grip not 'downforce'.

I'm pretty sure rear end grip has been lost to the stiffness of suspension the team is forced to run, a compliant rear end has long been a hallmark of Merc's car which has been lost.

According to Formula 1's YT channel Merc has the least porpoising now but this is surely at the cost of running anything like we'd consider as suspension. Merc didn't want to give away all the downforce their zero-pod design was generating by being able to run a softer suspension setup so noddy tracks like Monaco will be heavily compromised as a result.

I said months ago that this new formula will be a suspension development race as much as an aero race and whoever can combine low speed compliance with high speed control of porpoising or find a driver acceptable compromise will be quids in.

[matteosc]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FUFLwU2X0AA ... name=large

Additional insulation?

[wogx]

[CMSMJ1]

https://www.wykop.pl/cdn/c3201142/comme ... qDsNRa.jpg

Can we get some context on the pic?

Is that Lewis, post Ocon?

[matteosc]

https://www.wykop.pl/cdn/c3201142/comme ... qDsNRa.jpg

Can we get some context on the pic?

Is that Lewis, post Ocon?

After the contact, before red flag (when I believe they replaced the part).

[NL_Fer]

If it is about the suspension, it would explain overall good performance of the Ferrari customer teams, since they buy the parts.

Also suspension has been Mercedes’ least strong point of the car since the start. They had a fast car in 2012 but lost it in tyre life. Also during the hybrid area we have seen them struggling on tracks like Monaco and Singapore multiple times, with bad grip and keeping the temps in the operating window. Their rear axle always looked a bit limited on traction, compared to Ferrari and Redbull.

[matteosc]

If it is about the suspension, it would explain overall good performance of the Ferrari customer teams, since they buy the parts.

Also suspension has been Mercedes’ least strong point of the car since the start. They had a fast car in 2012 but lost it in tyre life. Also during the hybrid area we have seen them struggling on tracks like Monaco and Singapore multiple times, with bad grip and keeping the temps in the operating window. Their rear axle always looked a bit limited on traction, compared to Ferrari and Redbull.

I have to disagree about Mercedes not being at the top suspension-wise. It is true for pre-2012, but most of the 2014-2020 success was due to their ability to set the car aero platform, thanks to their suspension system. For the first few years engine was also a big contributor, but that advantage diminished over time, while the superiority in the stability of the aerodynamics remained. Not to mention the big gains obtained when they were able to lower the cars on straights to gain more top speed last year. And all this has a lot to do with suspension.

Side note about Ferrari-powered teams (not relevant for the thread): you can have the same parts, but how you set them and run them has a lot of importance too.

[Starbuckle486]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FUFLwU2X0AA ... name=large

Additional insulation?

That would be my guess. It looks a lot like an ultra light rigid "foam" that is used as insulation. I have seen it some industrial ovens/climate chambers where one wants good insulation and a minimal thermal mass.

[balalev]

Is it possible to upgrade the rear suspension during the year? Or is it banned?

Thank you!

[Rodak]

You can change anything you want, as long as it's not homologated, and suspension isn't. So change away.....

[tuj]

Is there not any trick work to be done with shocks here? Aren't they still relatively free? My understanding was hydraulic members were banned but dampers are unlimited (although they must be passive). Typically a higher race shock has high and low-speed (shock shaft speed) rebound/compression settings, some go further. When you look at the shock dyno, to some extent you can draw a digressive curve, with one or more inflection points.

When I ran in autocross, the stock classes were running on race tires but everything else was verboten but shocks and front sway. Being factory cars, you don't have enough spring rate and the ride height is too high. Building shocks custom designed to hold different speed rebounds at different shaft positions was often done to 'jack' the car down. It would hit the first corner/brake and the suspension would compress and not ever fully rise back up until the end of the run.

Now I now this is a lot different, but here a shaft-displacement-based compression setting could serve as almost like a 'soft bump-stop'? There are also ways to increase hysteresis around a given point. If Merc could control their ride height on-track with complex shock setups (they would be track-specific), it could be an "easy" fix to bring the car back into the window.

[Stu]

Hydraulic linking is banned now, but complex damping and modal suspension systems are not (they ‘just’ need to be mechanically linked). There have been some very good shots of both the Ferrari/Haas and RedBull/AlphaTauri rear systems, as well as some intriguing pictures of the RedBull front suspension (kinematically speaking). They are worth having a look for; you could spend a significant amount of time trying to work out what they are doing and why!!