2022 - McLaren Formula 1 Team

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MrGapes
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Joined: 10 Mar 2021, 09:24

Re: 2022 - McLaren Formula 1 Team

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Mansell89 wrote:
06 Jun 2022, 13:06
So looking at Baku then, how do we expect to fair?

Seems to be a few people who think we are draggy and therefore may well suffer on the long straight.

I’m not sure myself- Lando was a final corner mistake away from popping us on front row in Monaco and Baku does need grip for a fast lap- as Ferrari were able to show last season when CLC popped it on pole!

I can’t see us threatening Red Bull on race pace and I’m sure Ferraris traction will put them out of reach, but I think we could grab P5 here with a good weekend.
We may see the team do a back to back rear wing comparison during FP1 like most years, as Monaco suggested the Mechanical grip through the slow corners seems really good. so maybe the team can sacrifice a bit of downforce to claw back a bit of straight line speed. I do wonder what's going on with Merc PU2, I don't think it would be a major improvement, I think the MCL36 just lacks aerodynamic efficiency compared to it predecessors.

JPower
JPower
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Joined: 23 Feb 2021, 05:06

Re: 2022 - McLaren Formula 1 Team

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1m0bius1 wrote:
06 Jun 2022, 10:53
I think its a disgrace to hire a driver and not cater to his driving style through aero philosiphy especially after feedback that he would not be able to perform with that philosiphy

Mclaren basically circlejerked Daniel to get his signature. Monaco where he has been so strong since the start of his career. He is nowhere. That just tells you all you to know. When Daniel is struggling at Monaco where is normally a monster, the car is not going to suit him and he isnt going to adapt to this rather bizarre car philopisiphy. 50m on a driver to not cater to what he needs is a complete waste of time and resources on both sides. Renault was able to do this within 1 season.

Sainz got destroyed by Hulkenberg yet Daniel beat him comfortable at the first time at asking. Why is Mclaren so solidified on this failure of a car philosiphy just to cater to Lando. Makes little sense. Its got them nowhere near the front. I hope Audi buy out this garbage and clean out the technical team. 1 Second gap to the lead car is a Joke.

Daniel struggling at Monaco was so hard to watch. He is normally a top top driver there.
Again, no team "caters" its cars' design to its drivers.

Renault did not "cater" its car to Ricciardo. The car already had the strong front end(even in 2018) DR was comfortable with and the entire design was improved between 2019 and 2020.

SmallSoldier
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Re: 2022 - McLaren Formula 1 Team

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MrGapes wrote:
06 Jun 2022, 13:56
Mansell89 wrote:
06 Jun 2022, 13:06
So looking at Baku then, how do we expect to fair?

Seems to be a few people who think we are draggy and therefore may well suffer on the long straight.

I’m not sure myself- Lando was a final corner mistake away from popping us on front row in Monaco and Baku does need grip for a fast lap- as Ferrari were able to show last season when CLC popped it on pole!

I can’t see us threatening Red Bull on race pace and I’m sure Ferraris traction will put them out of reach, but I think we could grab P5 here with a good weekend.
We may see the team do a back to back rear wing comparison during FP1 like most years, as Monaco suggested the Mechanical grip through the slow corners seems really good. so maybe the team can sacrifice a bit of downforce to claw back a bit of straight line speed. I do wonder what's going on with Merc PU2, I don't think it would be a major improvement, I think the MCL36 just lacks aerodynamic efficiency compared to it predecessors.
Baku is a big interrogation mark for me… Last season the MCL35M was very quick on the straights and we came from Monaco where we actually landed a podium and were leading the midfield behind the top 3… Nevertheless, in Baku the team didn’t classified well and in the race they had less pace than Aston Martin and Alpha Tauri.

Very hard to extrapolate performance based on the previous races.

Mansell89
Mansell89
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Joined: 22 Feb 2015, 19:21

Re: 2022 - McLaren Formula 1 Team

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SmallSoldier wrote:
06 Jun 2022, 16:35
MrGapes wrote:
06 Jun 2022, 13:56
Mansell89 wrote:
06 Jun 2022, 13:06
So looking at Baku then, how do we expect to fair?

Seems to be a few people who think we are draggy and therefore may well suffer on the long straight.

I’m not sure myself- Lando was a final corner mistake away from popping us on front row in Monaco and Baku does need grip for a fast lap- as Ferrari were able to show last season when CLC popped it on pole!

I can’t see us threatening Red Bull on race pace and I’m sure Ferraris traction will put them out of reach, but I think we could grab P5 here with a good weekend.
We may see the team do a back to back rear wing comparison during FP1 like most years, as Monaco suggested the Mechanical grip through the slow corners seems really good. so maybe the team can sacrifice a bit of downforce to claw back a bit of straight line speed. I do wonder what's going on with Merc PU2, I don't think it would be a major improvement, I think the MCL36 just lacks aerodynamic efficiency compared to it predecessors.
Baku is a big interrogation mark for me… Last season the MCL35M was very quick on the straights and we came from Monaco where we actually landed a podium and were leading the midfield behind the top 3… Nevertheless, in Baku the team didn’t classified well and in the race they had less pace than Aston Martin and Alpha Tauri.

Very hard to extrapolate performance based on the previous races.
Yeah agree it’s a bit of a difficult one to read!

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mwillems
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Joined: 04 Sep 2016, 22:11

Re: 2022 - McLaren Formula 1 Team

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SmallSoldier wrote:
06 Jun 2022, 16:35
MrGapes wrote:
06 Jun 2022, 13:56
Mansell89 wrote:
06 Jun 2022, 13:06
So looking at Baku then, how do we expect to fair?

Seems to be a few people who think we are draggy and therefore may well suffer on the long straight.

I’m not sure myself- Lando was a final corner mistake away from popping us on front row in Monaco and Baku does need grip for a fast lap- as Ferrari were able to show last season when CLC popped it on pole!

I can’t see us threatening Red Bull on race pace and I’m sure Ferraris traction will put them out of reach, but I think we could grab P5 here with a good weekend.
We may see the team do a back to back rear wing comparison during FP1 like most years, as Monaco suggested the Mechanical grip through the slow corners seems really good. so maybe the team can sacrifice a bit of downforce to claw back a bit of straight line speed. I do wonder what's going on with Merc PU2, I don't think it would be a major improvement, I think the MCL36 just lacks aerodynamic efficiency compared to it predecessors.
Baku is a big interrogation mark for me… Last season the MCL35M was very quick on the straights and we came from Monaco where we actually landed a podium and were leading the midfield behind the top 3… Nevertheless, in Baku the team didn’t classified well and in the race they had less pace than Aston Martin and Alpha Tauri.

Very hard to extrapolate performance based on the previous races.
Wind speed and direction, track temperature, gearing and specific types of corner profiles prior to the long straights go a long way to determining how well you do here I guess. Even with a good top speed, if you exit slower on to the straight then you will lose a chunk of time all the way along the straight. That top speed only counts towards the back end.

Fingers crossed for a good weekend, it'll be interesting to see where we are slower here in Baku as the track is a very good test of many aspects of the car.
I'm not taking advice from a cartoon dog

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PlatinumZealot
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Joined: 12 Jun 2008, 03:45

Re: 2022 - McLaren Formula 1 Team

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1m0bius1 wrote:
06 Jun 2022, 10:53
I think its a disgrace to hire a driver and not cater to his driving style through aero philosiphy especially after feedback that he would not be able to perform with that philosiphy

Mclaren basically circlejerked Daniel to get his signature. Monaco where he has been so strong since the start of his career. He is nowhere. That just tells you all you to know. When Daniel is struggling at Monaco where is normally a monster, the car is not going to suit him and he isnt going to adapt to this rather bizarre car philopisiphy. 50m on a driver to not cater to what he needs is a complete waste of time and resources on both sides. Renault was able to do this within 1 season.

Sainz got destroyed by Hulkenberg yet Daniel beat him comfortable at the first time at asking. Why is Mclaren so solidified on this failure of a car philosiphy just to cater to Lando. Makes little sense. Its got them nowhere near the front. I hope Audi buy out this garbage and clean out the technical team. 1 Second gap to the lead car is a Joke.

Daniel struggling at Monaco was so hard to watch. He is normally a top top driver there.
You said it is a disgrace that McLaren haven't "catered" to Daniel's driving style and that the car philosophy is bizarre. Hmmm those beleifs has some weak points in this specific case.

The thing is, Daniel was rated very highly. His name was mentioned with Lewis, Nico, and Alonso from 2014 to 2018. He was the hottest property at the time and he was paid handsomely to bring race winning experience and skill to a refreshed McLaren.

So Daniel's primary role as lead driver was to work with the engineers to find which set up path the car must take to make it faster. I would suggest there are three optimal paths: one for the race, one for qualifying and one that is the best compromise between the two. But it seems Daniel didn't realise that the fastest direction does not always go hand in hand with his specific driving style; it is his job to drive whatever beast he is given as fast as it can physically go and tell the engineers where the setup can be tweaked to make it faster over the race or over one lap regardless of whether the car handles to his preferences or not.

I can only guess that the problem he finds himself in, is that when he claims the direction is wrong because the car handles weirdly to him, there is Norris with an even more unstable car, four tenths up the road. Daniel then might try, in an unabashed way, to prove that when the car is set up to drive how he likes it then he can be even fatser than Norris with better tyre life to boot! And he tries and tries and tries, with great inensity and seriousness, and the car is even slower than before! It simply cannot be driven at it's limits when it is driven the way he likes.

So it ends up that Daniel has no choice but to drive it the way Norris has found. But I guess Daniel cannot tap into those unactivated neural connections that he has never used before in his life. It could be a certain way of seeing, processing and moving the muscles - this Daniel can learn relatively quickly through practice, or it could a myriad of ways and adjustments that change dynamically with conditions - that requires shifting the registers of different neural networks of the brain in milliseconds - now this is not something you can learn overnight, and this is why he is seemingly stuck, he never had to do this with the lively but telepathic RedBulls he had before.
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runningmanz
runningmanz
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Joined: 25 May 2021, 14:57

Re: 2022 - McLaren Formula 1 Team

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Detailed analysis of the brake fix by The Race.

https://the-race.com/formula-1/how-mcla ... r-problem/

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mwillems
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Joined: 04 Sep 2016, 22:11

Re: 2022 - McLaren Formula 1 Team

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PlatinumZealot wrote:
07 Jun 2022, 07:42
1m0bius1 wrote:
06 Jun 2022, 10:53
I think its a disgrace to hire a driver and not cater to his driving style through aero philosiphy especially after feedback that he would not be able to perform with that philosiphy

Mclaren basically circlejerked Daniel to get his signature. Monaco where he has been so strong since the start of his career. He is nowhere. That just tells you all you to know. When Daniel is struggling at Monaco where is normally a monster, the car is not going to suit him and he isnt going to adapt to this rather bizarre car philopisiphy. 50m on a driver to not cater to what he needs is a complete waste of time and resources on both sides. Renault was able to do this within 1 season.

Sainz got destroyed by Hulkenberg yet Daniel beat him comfortable at the first time at asking. Why is Mclaren so solidified on this failure of a car philosiphy just to cater to Lando. Makes little sense. Its got them nowhere near the front. I hope Audi buy out this garbage and clean out the technical team. 1 Second gap to the lead car is a Joke.

Daniel struggling at Monaco was so hard to watch. He is normally a top top driver there.
You said it is a disgrace that McLaren haven't "catered" to Daniel's driving style and that the car philosophy is bizarre. Hmmm those beleifs has some weak points in this specific case.

The thing is, Daniel was rated very highly. His name was mentioned with Lewis, Nico, and Alonso from 2014 to 2018. He was the hottest property at the time and he was paid handsomely to bring race winning experience and skill to a refreshed McLaren.

So Daniel's primary role as lead driver was to work with the engineers to find which set up path the car must take to make it faster. I would suggest there are three optimal paths: one for the race, one for qualifying and one that is the best compromise between the two. But it seems Daniel didn't realise that the fastest direction does not always go hand in hand with his specific driving style; it is his job to drive whatever beast he is given as fast as it can physically go and tell the engineers where the setup can be tweaked to make it faster over the race or over one lap regardless of whether the car handles to his preferences or not.

I can only guess that the problem he finds himself in, is that when he claims the direction is wrong because the car handles weirdly to him, there is Norris with an even more unstable car, four tenths up the road. Daniel then might try, in an unabashed way, to prove that when the car is set up to drive how he likes it then he can be even fatser than Norris with better tyre life to boot! And he tries and tries and tries, with great inensity and seriousness, and the car is even slower than before! It simply cannot be driven at it's limits when it is driven the way he likes.

So it ends up that Daniel has no choice but to drive it the way Norris has found. But I guess Daniel cannot tap into those unactivated neural connections that he has never used before in his life. It could be a certain way of seeing, processing and moving the muscles - this Daniel can learn relatively quickly through practice, or it could a myriad of ways and adjustments that change dynamically with conditions - that requires shifting the registers of different neural networks of the brain in milliseconds - now this is not something you can learn overnight, and this is why he is seemingly stuck, he never had to do this with the lively but telepathic RedBulls he had before.
Even the current Red Bull has a nose that was not as pointed as previous years. This whole formula has reduced the grip at the front of the cars and it is perhaps this formula that is now making Daniel redundant as a driver, not just any inherent "weakness" of the Mclaren.
I'm not taking advice from a cartoon dog

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continuum16
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Joined: 30 Nov 2015, 17:35
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Re: 2022 - McLaren Formula 1 Team

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mwillems wrote:
07 Jun 2022, 10:03
PlatinumZealot wrote:
07 Jun 2022, 07:42
1m0bius1 wrote:
06 Jun 2022, 10:53
I think its a disgrace to hire a driver and not cater to his driving style through aero philosiphy especially after feedback that he would not be able to perform with that philosiphy

Mclaren basically circlejerked Daniel to get his signature. Monaco where he has been so strong since the start of his career. He is nowhere. That just tells you all you to know. When Daniel is struggling at Monaco where is normally a monster, the car is not going to suit him and he isnt going to adapt to this rather bizarre car philopisiphy. 50m on a driver to not cater to what he needs is a complete waste of time and resources on both sides. Renault was able to do this within 1 season.

Sainz got destroyed by Hulkenberg yet Daniel beat him comfortable at the first time at asking. Why is Mclaren so solidified on this failure of a car philosiphy just to cater to Lando. Makes little sense. Its got them nowhere near the front. I hope Audi buy out this garbage and clean out the technical team. 1 Second gap to the lead car is a Joke.

Daniel struggling at Monaco was so hard to watch. He is normally a top top driver there.
You said it is a disgrace that McLaren haven't "catered" to Daniel's driving style and that the car philosophy is bizarre. Hmmm those beleifs has some weak points in this specific case.

The thing is, Daniel was rated very highly. His name was mentioned with Lewis, Nico, and Alonso from 2014 to 2018. He was the hottest property at the time and he was paid handsomely to bring race winning experience and skill to a refreshed McLaren.

So Daniel's primary role as lead driver was to work with the engineers to find which set up path the car must take to make it faster. I would suggest there are three optimal paths: one for the race, one for qualifying and one that is the best compromise between the two. But it seems Daniel didn't realise that the fastest direction does not always go hand in hand with his specific driving style; it is his job to drive whatever beast he is given as fast as it can physically go and tell the engineers where the setup can be tweaked to make it faster over the race or over one lap regardless of whether the car handles to his preferences or not.

I can only guess that the problem he finds himself in, is that when he claims the direction is wrong because the car handles weirdly to him, there is Norris with an even more unstable car, four tenths up the road. Daniel then might try, in an unabashed way, to prove that when the car is set up to drive how he likes it then he can be even fatser than Norris with better tyre life to boot! And he tries and tries and tries, with great inensity and seriousness, and the car is even slower than before! It simply cannot be driven at it's limits when it is driven the way he likes.

So it ends up that Daniel has no choice but to drive it the way Norris has found. But I guess Daniel cannot tap into those unactivated neural connections that he has never used before in his life. It could be a certain way of seeing, processing and moving the muscles - this Daniel can learn relatively quickly through practice, or it could a myriad of ways and adjustments that change dynamically with conditions - that requires shifting the registers of different neural networks of the brain in milliseconds - now this is not something you can learn overnight, and this is why he is seemingly stuck, he never had to do this with the lively but telepathic RedBulls he had before.
Even the current Red Bull has a nose that was not as pointed as previous years. This whole formula has reduced the grip at the front of the cars and it is perhaps this formula that is now making Daniel redundant as a driver, not just any inherent "weakness" of the Mclaren.
I think that’s certainly a reasonable possibility. Obviously we can look at the relative performance of Vettel 2013 vs 2014 as a drastic case of the general formula not matching a driver’s preference.

I also don’t think that the current car has been “designed to suit Lando” as others suggest. When Ric first arrived and Sainz was explaining that the McLaren car was very strange, Lando also noted how he can’t drive it how he wants. Is it closer to what he would consider his “natural” style? Probably, but there’s no way to confirm this.

Also Lando has never driven another car that doesn’t have these “strange” characteristics. Perhaps we are in Red Bull-Verstappen 2019-21 territory, where the car is so specifically set up that new drivers cannot learn do drive it.

The difference between McLaren and RB in this case is that the 2022 RB has very different characteristics (more understeer, less unstable) to 2021, but the McLaren is broadly similar (slow speed weakness, etc.).
"You can't argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience"
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mwillems
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Re: 2022 - McLaren Formula 1 Team

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I think the car is designed to go as fast as they can and they will get that speed any way they find they can make the car more efficient. Some points of the car that can be tweaked based on driver feedback will be tweaked, but overall the car is designed to go as fast as the designers can make it go. The drivers then have to do their job.

I love Daniel, but time is running out for him certainly in terms of patience and whilst we don't know what his contract says, it is possible that he is also running out of time. I totally hope he makes the connection with the car and can drive the boots off it, but at this point if he was moved on by the team I could not reasonably argue that decision. I hope the Formula isn't the issue as I'd like to see him do well elsewhere if he does move on.
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the EDGE
the EDGE
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Joined: 13 Feb 2012, 18:31
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Re: 2022 - McLaren Formula 1 Team

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If I were Zac B, I’d be more interested in why my car was incapable of wining a race (or even come close to it) even in the hands of his 1 driver that seems to able to drive it to its limit, than why the second driver can’t seem to get to grips with it

Or perhaps I wouldn’t, because surely the problems are connected?

Daniel might not be the best person to have in the car right now, but he’s definitely the best who’s available IMO, and could well be the best next year too

I’m not interested in finishing BOTR, I want wins, and plenty of them, and until the cars capable, what’s the point of changing the driver?

Now the deficit could be infrastructure related like they claim, but quite frankly I think the biggest chunk of the deficit is two fold, they’re lacking innovation, & the courage to take risk, at least compared to the top 3 teams anyway

That’s what they need to concentrate on, anything else is just a distraction

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DiogoBrand
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Re: 2022 - McLaren Formula 1 Team

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I think this is the first time ever I've seen this sort of excuse.
You have one driver getting into Q3 and scoring podiums all the time, while the other one is consistently over half a second behind and struggling to get out of Q2, and somehow it's the team's fault? Why did nobody come up with that when Ricciardo wiped the floor with Vettel in 2014, or when Leclerc beat Vettel in his first season driving for Ferarri, or when Schumacher beat Mazepin everywhere last season? Is it possible that Bottas was behind Hamilton all the time because Mercedes specifically designed the car to suit Lewis and screw Bottas over? Did Mercedes design their car for this season to benefit Russell because they didn't want Lewis to get his 8th title?

You have a team that's trying to design a car as fast as they can, and two drivers paid to drive it as fast as possible. If one of them can't do the job it's not anyone's fault but his own.

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DiogoBrand
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Re: 2022 - McLaren Formula 1 Team

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the EDGE wrote:
08 Jun 2022, 00:10
Now the deficit could be infrastructure related like they claim, but quite frankly I think the biggest chunk of the deficit is two fold, they’re lacking innovation, & the courage to take risk, at least compared to the top 3 teams anyway

That’s what they need to concentrate on, anything else is just a distraction
The people from the team are saying it's a matter of infrastructure but you seem to know better.
Williams and Haas are probably just lacking innovation and courage to take risks in order to challenge for the world championship.

PhillipM
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Re: 2022 - McLaren Formula 1 Team

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It's hilarious, when Mclaren do take a risk the same people come out of the woodwork and tell us the reason they're not fast is because they're too busy wasting time on "one horse pony tricks" instead of just being good at the fundamentals.

Lets not forget this is a car with some fairly different front floor, brake and pushrods front and rear....but sure, not enough innovation.

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DiogoBrand
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Re: 2022 - McLaren Formula 1 Team

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PhillipM wrote:
08 Jun 2022, 02:36
It's hilarious, when Mclaren do take a risk the same people come out of the woodwork and tell us the reason they're not fast is because they're too busy wasting time on "one horse pony tricks" instead of just being good at the fundamentals.

Lets not forget this is a car with some fairly different front floor, brake and pushrods front and rear....but sure, not enough innovation.
You're being unfair. It ended up quite well when they took a risk and went with a new PU supplier in 2015.