2022 - McLaren Formula 1 Team

[SmallSoldier]

If I were Zac B, I’d be more interested in why my car was incapable of wining a race (or even come close to it) even in the hands of his 1 driver that seems to able to drive it to its limit, than why the second driver can’t seem to get to grips with it

Or perhaps I wouldn’t, because surely the problems are connected?

Daniel might not be the best person to have in the car right now, but he’s definitely the best who’s available IMO, and could well be the best next year too

I’m not interested in finishing BOTR, I want wins, and plenty of them, and until the cars capable, what’s the point of changing the driver?

Now the deficit could be infrastructure related like they claim, but quite frankly I think the biggest chunk of the deficit is two fold, they’re lacking innovation, & the courage to take risk, at least compared to the top 3 teams anyway

That’s what they need to concentrate on, anything else is just a distraction

Agree on the focus to create a winning car… But you should also be trying to maximize what you have and for that you need 2 drivers that will extract as much as possible of the package you already have in place… Finishing 3rd, 4th or 5th does indeed matter, not only from a monetary aspect (prize money), but also in terms of sponsorship which ultimately translates in better resources (personnel and equipment) to achieve that ultimate goal of having a winning car.

And that’s where the conundrum with Daniel comes, it wouldn’t matter much if he would be in within a couple of tenths from Lando week in / week out… But the performance seems larger than that, not only on one lap pace, but in finishing race positions which is what matters…

As you well stated he is probably the best option in the current pool of drivers, but he is arguably expensive given the results provided and the team could save an important amount of money by getting a driver with a fraction of the cost, but with similar on track performance.

[SmallSoldier]

Not sure how pro-dive suspension geometry, DAS, size-zero cooling, and hi-side pod inlets that managed to copy requires better infrastructure?

None of those concepts exists in a vacuum. They are part of a vehicle concept. The concept needs tools like an up to date advanced wind tunnel and simulation platform to validate. If you don't have the latter two to make the radical concepts perform, then you will naturally shy away from them and create designs that can be executed and validated.

And are we conveniently forgetting that for most / all of the Hybrid era those 3 teams had a budget that was at least twice of what McLaren was spending? The amount of resources in terms of infrastructure, tools and even software / computational power is proportional to the amount of spending before, the amount of knowledge and lessons learned while having that spending advantage will have an effect even today that we have a Budget Cap… It will take several years for the cap to start equalizing things.

[PlatinumZealot]

If I were Zac B, I’d be more interested in why my car was incapable of wining a race (or even come close to it) even in the hands of his 1 driver that seems to able to drive it to its limit, than why the second driver can’t seem to get to grips with it

Or perhaps I wouldn’t, because surely the problems are connected?

Daniel might not be the best person to have in the car right now, but he’s definitely the best who’s available IMO, and could well be the best next year too

I’m not interested in finishing BOTR, I want wins, and plenty of them, and until the cars capable, what’s the point of changing the driver?

Now the deficit could be infrastructure related like they claim, but quite frankly I think the biggest chunk of the deficit is two fold, they’re lacking innovation, & the courage to take risk, at least compared to the top 3 teams anyway

That’s what they need to concentrate on, anything else is just a distraction

Haven't heard any news if that new wind tunnel is completed. As a big team McLaren really dropped the ball when the were slow to upgrade their wind tunnel. I think Ferrari went through two upgrades already before McLaren will have their new one.

[Swed3120]

If I were Zac B, I’d be more interested in why my car was incapable of wining a race (or even come close to it) even in the hands of his 1 driver that seems to able to drive it to its limit, than why the second driver can’t seem to get to grips with it

Or perhaps I wouldn’t, because surely the problems are connected?

Daniel might not be the best person to have in the car right now, but he’s definitely the best who’s available IMO, and could well be the best next year too

I’m not interested in finishing BOTR, I want wins, and plenty of them, and until the cars capable, what’s the point of changing the driver?

Now the deficit could be infrastructure related like they claim, but quite frankly I think the biggest chunk of the deficit is two fold, they’re lacking innovation, & the courage to take risk, at least compared to the top 3 teams anyway

That’s what they need to concentrate on, anything else is just a distraction

Haven't heard any news if that new wind tunnel is completed. As a big team McLaren really dropped the ball when the were slow to upgrade their wind tunnel. I think Ferrari went through two upgrades already before McLaren will have their new one.

Again, it’s worth remembering that in 2020 McLaren was very very close to bankruptcy, I don’t assume they where doing much better in the previous years, they simply didn’t have the money to be investing in such projects , you have to remember , even if we are now above the budget cap , Ferrari had a running budget of 2-3x that of McLaren and therefore could invest in more facilities

[Swed3120]

RedBull's suspension is unique in terms of layout, but that's not really the most impressive part of that car.

If I were to pick out a "radical" element of the RedBull I would pick the floor strake configuration. Before CopyPoint came along with their version, RedBull's underfloor configuration was by far the most unique implementation of that area. And they also have a very unique body-aero (in terms of sidepods) to back that up.

Compare that to Ferrari for example, which visually speaking has nothing "bold" or "striking" in their car apart from their bathtub sidepod configuration. The underfloor of the Ferrari looks basic in comparison to what RedBull has done with theirs.

And then there's the other point to consider. These "striking" or "cool" looking details you see at these cars are never the sole reason for their speed. The ultimate speed always has to do with the combination of multiple details in a concept, both mechanical and aerodynamical.

And to be honest, just because something looks complex or advanced, it doesn't necessarily mean it's going to perform the best. Sometimes the simplest option is the best. So just because you don't see anything "cool" when you look at the McLaren, it doesn't automatically make the car slow.

But that's beside the point anyway, because you are claiming McLaren has the most basic car in the grid (which is in itself kind of a contradiction because the most "basic" car of the 2022 grid is beating 6 other teams with apparently more "advance" concepts). And to be honest with you, McLaren is definitely not the most basic 2022 car in this grid. There is plenty going on in that car. They may not be as visually striking as Mercedes' zero-pod, the Ferrari's bathrub sidepods or RedBull's crazy floor, but that doesn't mean they are not there.

Also, technicalities aside, even visually speaking, if you were to ask me which is the most basic car of the 2022 grid. I would personally pick Aston Marting (before their change), primarily because there is absolutely nothing daring in putting a huge undercut in your car (Williams did it first in 2018, albeit not to the same extent). With Haas coming in at a close second as the most basic-looking car of this grid.

Also worth noting that the McLaren is actually quite a radical car when comparing it to its rivals.

We are one of only 3 teams that have a car that doesn’t share its philosophy with any other.

The Alpine, RB, AT and Green Bull can be grouped together with there down-wash pods

The Ferrari and Haas can be grouped together with tall-long side pods

The Alfa and the AMR (the real one they didnt steal) both have a undercut side pod

The McLaren has a unique front outwash and thin coke bottle section.
It’s also worth noting that mcl uses Air to Air intercollers in the pods which take up more space but save on weight compared to the air to water coolers Mercedes uses.

The Mercedes has its zero-pod

The Williams has a bit a mix of the two but is still very unique

This doesn’t even take into account the underfloor which we can’t see and the suspension which im far to novice to even attempt to Analyse

[McG]

It's hilarious, when Mclaren do take a risk the same people come out of the woodwork and tell us the reason they're not fast is because they're too busy wasting time on "one horse pony tricks" instead of just being good at the fundamentals.

Lets not forget this is a car with some fairly different front floor, brake and pushrods front and rear....but sure, not enough innovation.

Don't get me wrong, the MCL36 is a great car, so was the 35 & 35m... when compared with the midfield. But its not where McLaren want to be. Quiet simply, in F1 Great is not good enough

I'm not saying McLaren need 'one horse pony tricks', I'm saying the team need to be bold, take risks, and close the gap to the front. Treading water is fine, but they have to swim if they are to close the gap. They are still a second a lap in race pace behind. Lando is still a second a lap behind

What I want to see is speed, determination & innovation like they showed in 2020 when they introduced a raft of updates in time to beat the impending homologation rule, but what I see instead is a team that takes a solid, conventional path to design & development. It is without doubt them most conventional looking car on the grid in 2022. this path will not beat the likes of the top 3

Yes they were bold with the suspension... but not compared to front runner RB with their extreme geometry. that certainly never had anything to do with infrastructure, its clever, bold innovation. look at what Ferrari & Merc have come up with over the past few years, from DAS to high level side-pod intakes, from no-pods & size-zero cooling to low-drag pods. Bold, innovative risk taking IMO

Like I said, Daniel is not the reason the team is not winning. The team is the reason the team is not winning. Daniel has won races recently, McLaren have not (well, at least not without Daniel at the wheel anyway)

Produce a winning car and if Daniel is still off the pace, replace him. until then, I see know reason to replace him, and I'm more concerned he may choose to go elsewhere, as oppose to McLaren choosing to replace him.

it does not matter to me where they finish in WCC, if they're 3rd they get more money, which with the budget cap is of little consequence to a team who are already pushing to have the cap increased, if they finish 5th the get more of the most valuable commodity in F1, something even money can not buy... more CFD & wind-tunnel time

Oh, & I haven't come from behind any woodwork, I have been right here voicing support for McLaren for the last 10 years, sticking by them through thick & thin. I just have a different view to others, & I'm not afraid to share it

It's not really about what you want short term. You've seen how the season is going and it's most likely not going to change. It's not really about what McLaren want short term either. Great is good enough for McLaren at the moment and will be good enough for the rest of the season, if they do a good enough job. And indeed it isn't even great to finish 4th, but it'll be good enough for McLaren as that's where they are. Until the wind tunnel is complete and they get a handle on it then it'll be 4th for another while. I suggest you get used to it and curb your expectations.

I remember when I was younger watching when Ferrari were dominant and still hoping, even expecting a miracle for the Mclarens to catch up even though they were like 30 sec or more behind. The same thing is happening now on a bigger scale. It just ain't gonna happen anytime soon.

[JPower]

Not sure how pro-dive suspension geometry, DAS, size-zero cooling, and hi-side pod inlets that managed to copy requires better infrastructure?

None of those concepts exists in a vacuum. They are part of a vehicle concept. The concept needs tools like an up to date advanced wind tunnel and simulation platform to validate. If you don't have the latter two to make the radical concepts perform, then you will naturally shy away from them and create designs that can be executed and validated.

And are we conveniently forgetting that for most / all of the Hybrid era those 3 teams had a budget that was at least twice of what McLaren was spending? The amount of resources in terms of infrastructure, tools and even software / computational power is proportional to the amount of spending before, the amount of knowledge and lessons learned while having that spending advantage will have an effect even today that we have a Budget Cap… It will take several years for the cap to start equalizing things.

I agree. The only 3 teams that could pull off the car concepts of the top 3 cars today are Ferrari/RB/Merc just due to the built-in resources they've built up during an unlimited spending time period.

[CjC]

If I were Zac B, I’d be more interested in why my car was incapable of wining a race (or even come close to it) even in the hands of his 1 driver that seems to able to drive it to its limit, than why the second driver can’t seem to get to grips with it

Or perhaps I wouldn’t, because surely the problems are connected?

Daniel might not be the best person to have in the car right now, but he’s definitely the best who’s available IMO, and could well be the best next year too

I’m not interested in finishing BOTR, I want wins, and plenty of them, and until the cars capable, what’s the point of changing the driver?

Now the deficit could be infrastructure related like they claim, but quite frankly I think the biggest chunk of the deficit is two fold, they’re lacking innovation, & the courage to take risk, at least compared to the top 3 teams anyway

That’s what they need to concentrate on, anything else is just a distraction

Haven't heard any news if that new wind tunnel is completed. As a big team McLaren really dropped the ball when the were slow to upgrade their wind tunnel. I think Ferrari went through two upgrades already before McLaren will have their new one.

Building trade is absolutely inundated with work in the UK currently and has been since late 2020.
The project could have started late because the construction company simply couldnt start it any sooner or if it did start ‘on time’ has been struggling to bring in the required labour and materials to keep up with the Ferrari timescale.

[A.J.O]

https://mclaren.recruitee.com/o/special ... s-engineer

Is McLaren indirectly admitting they cant figure the car out and need help?

[DiogoBrand]

You seem to miss my point entirely, Ferrari, RB & Merc had cars capable of winning races at the time. McLaren do not.

Its up to all THREE of them to win actually. as soon as 2 of them can & 1 cant, then they have a problem. Until then, McLaren need to work as hard as Daniel, and vice-versa. Blaming one or the other is simply unacceptable IMO

lets not forget, Daniel didn't suddenly forget how to drive overnight, in fact he didn't have any weakness until he got behind the wheel of a McLaren. Pretending the problem is all Daniel is simply wrong

Nobody said that McLaren doesn't need to work hard and improve, and also no one said that Ricciardo should be winning races with the current car. What I think most people expect is that he just doesn't let his teammate humiliate him all the time.

[runningmanz]

It's hilarious, when Mclaren do take a risk the same people come out of the woodwork and tell us the reason they're not fast is because they're too busy wasting time on "one horse pony tricks" instead of just being good at the fundamentals.

Lets not forget this is a car with some fairly different front floor, brake and pushrods front and rear....but sure, not enough innovation.

Don't get me wrong, the MCL36 is a great car, so was the 35 & 35m... when compared with the midfield. But its not where McLaren want to be. Quiet simply, in F1 Great is not good enough

I'm not saying McLaren need 'one horse pony tricks', I'm saying the team need to be bold, take risks, and close the gap to the front. Treading water is fine, but they have to swim if they are to close the gap. They are still a second a lap in race pace behind. Lando is still a second a lap behind

What I want to see is speed, determination & innovation like they showed in 2020 when they introduced a raft of updates in time to beat the impending homologation rule, but what I see instead is a team that takes a solid, conventional path to design & development. It is without doubt them most conventional looking car on the grid in 2022. this path will not beat the likes of the top 3

Yes they were bold with the suspension... but not compared to front runner RB with their extreme geometry. that certainly never had anything to do with infrastructure, its clever, bold innovation. look at what Ferrari & Merc have come up with over the past few years, from DAS to high level side-pod intakes, from no-pods & size-zero cooling to low-drag pods. Bold, innovative risk taking IMO

Like I said, Daniel is not the reason the team is not winning. The team is the reason the team is not winning. Daniel has won races recently, McLaren have not (well, at least not without Daniel at the wheel anyway)

Produce a winning car and if Daniel is still off the pace, replace him. until then, I see know reason to replace him, and I'm more concerned he may choose to go elsewhere, as oppose to McLaren choosing to replace him.

it does not matter to me where they finish in WCC, if they're 3rd they get more money, which with the budget cap is of little consequence to a team who are already pushing to have the cap increased, if they finish 5th the get more of the most valuable commodity in F1, something even money can not buy... more CFD & wind-tunnel time

Oh, & I haven't come from behind any woodwork, I have been right here voicing support for McLaren for the last 10 years, sticking by them through thick & thin. I just have a different view to others, & I'm not afraid to share it

Good post. I feel pretty much the same. The car in its current form isn't anywhere near a world beater or the fastest design, nor is it consistently strong at most tracks and predictable on the limit. Dan knows how to drive a fast car and also a better balanced one. He has proven it before many times. Its still only early with this new car and regulations so who knows how well and soon McLaren can get more grip into this car and try and bring it more towards what both Dan and Lando like given Key has stated they have both asked for the same things. People can say they don't design the car around the drivers but Key clearly stated in the last few interviews particularly when mentioning Dan that they took a close look at what his issues have been with the car last year and have tried to remove those in this design.

Dan is not an unknown quantity in regards to skill level and performance ceiling, certainly different to other drivers in the field that haven't won races or hit a high level of performance in F1. So in that respect they know what he is capable of when he has a car that he likes. They have already come a fair way down the road trying to incorporate into this car what he likes and obviously knowledge how others cars he has driven handle like the RBR etc. A better balanced car that is faster at more tracks and easier to drive on the limit. Again its what Lando wants as well. The thing is the McLaren with its weak front end and understeer is a leftover trait from way back in the Alonso days with his really bizarre, unique driving style where he purposely lets it understeer into the corner, where it becomes unbalanced and then jerks the steering wheel late to create more heat in the tyres and sling the car out of the corner. Its quick if you can do it but not very easy to learn and easy to make mistakes. Basically counter-intuitive to most others driving styles. Lando seems to have mastered it over a few years but he still doesn't like it, its not a great car design to have it understeery and unpredictable on the limit. A good explanation of it here:

https://first2finishblog.wordpress.com/ ... -2-titles/

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/alons ... 0/4407960/

This is why imo when looking at the sum of everything Dan brings to the team and the fact that apart from a couple of races recently where he was off Lando's pace where the track was lacking grip you hear Seidl stating repeatedly they are continuing to work hard to improve the car and work with Dan and that they want to make it work. They are looking at the long term picture, not the short term.

[JPower]

A better balanced car that is faster at more tracks and easier to drive on the limit. Again its what Lando wants as well. The thing is the McLaren with its weak front end and understeer is a leftover trait from way back in the Alonso days with his really bizarre, unique driving style where he purposely lets it understeer into the corner, where it becomes unbalanced and then jerks the steering wheel late to create more heat in the tyres and sling the car out of the corner. Its quick if you can do it but not very easy to learn and easy to make mistakes. Basically counter-intuitive to most others driving styles. Lando seems to have mastered it over a few years but he still doesn't like it, its not a great car design to have it understeery and unpredictable on the limit. A good explanation of it here:

Alonso's development impacted the 2017-2021 cars but I don't see his style having any effect on a brand new car that shares almost nothing with the previous regs.

The 2022's cars weak front end isn't a McLaren issue, its inherent to all of the 2022 cars. Even cars more prone to oversteer like the Ferrari still have weak front ends in comparison to last year's cars. Its very visible on the onboards and mainly a function of how these cars generate downforce now.

Key has said “the low-speed is not perfect, but it’s not the real roadblock we had in previous years”.

While there is still a struggle for front load in slower corners, this is down to the inherent characteristics of this new generation of ground-effect cars, which also run on new Pirelli rubber for the 18-inch wheelrims that have a more understeery balance than last year’s tyres.

“Some of it definitely is these cars’ wider characteristics, so for totally different reasons to last year it’s still a bit of a trait of these cars,” said Key when asked by The Race about the progress made in this area.

“Very little of the reasons behind the issues which we had before [carried over]. We could see what they were but it was really difficult to budget without massive changes and fresh approaches in some key areas, which is always difficult to do in-season.

[runningmanz]

A better balanced car that is faster at more tracks and easier to drive on the limit. Again its what Lando wants as well. The thing is the McLaren with its weak front end and understeer is a leftover trait from way back in the Alonso days with his really bizarre, unique driving style where he purposely lets it understeer into the corner, where it becomes unbalanced and then jerks the steering wheel late to create more heat in the tyres and sling the car out of the corner. Its quick if you can do it but not very easy to learn and easy to make mistakes. Basically counter-intuitive to most others driving styles. Lando seems to have mastered it over a few years but he still doesn't like it, its not a great car design to have it understeery and unpredictable on the limit. A good explanation of it here:

Alonso's development impacted the 2017-2021 cars but I don't see his style having any effect on a brand new car that shares almost nothing with the previous regs.

The 2022's cars weak front end isn't a McLaren issue, its inherent to all of the 2022 cars. Even cars more prone to oversteer like the Ferrari still have weak front ends in comparison to last year's cars. Its very visible on the onboards and mainly a function of how these cars generate downforce now.

Key has said “the low-speed is not perfect, but it’s not the real roadblock we had in previous years”.

While there is still a struggle for front load in slower corners, this is down to the inherent characteristics of this new generation of ground-effect cars, which also run on new Pirelli rubber for the 18-inch wheelrims that have a more understeery balance than last year’s tyres.

“Some of it definitely is these cars’ wider characteristics, so for totally different reasons to last year it’s still a bit of a trait of these cars,” said Key when asked by The Race about the progress made in this area.

“Very little of the reasons behind the issues which we had before [carried over]. We could see what they were but it was really difficult to budget without massive changes and fresh approaches in some key areas, which is always difficult to do in-season.

Yeah of course the cars have changed alot this year but there is still understeer there which was a trait of the previous cars even if this year it comes more from the different regs. That why I believe Dan is still struggling however I don't think its as bad as last year for him and only at lower grip tracks. Its compounded imo at those times by the general lack of grip with this new ground effects rule and our car even though it is improving. We saw this proven where the first 4 races he was generally on Lando's pace particularly in Australia. Will be interesting to see what they can do to improve the grip on this car and if anything to reduce the understeering and how much it occurs. Again its very early in these regs still alot of development to come.

[JPower]

Never mind

[runningmanz]

Never mind

Good album that from Nirvana!

Seriously though I see your points,no need to get cheesed off over a difference of opinion. There is alot of water to go under the bridge yet given these new regs. The cars will definitely improve and become easier to drive imo. Hopefully that helps Dan get his mojo back and soon.