Mercedes W13

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bosyber
bosyber
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Re: Mercedes W13

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chrstphrln wrote:
10 Jun 2022, 11:25
That's ridiculous. I hope such nonsense will be banned for 2023.
It is definitely taking a run with the written regulations. Although all teams do a lot more with it than just support the mirrors (see Ferrari for example saying efficiency due to better cockpit flow - that's arguably good use in the rules of a fuel-limited formule ;)

After Ferrari introduced those extra wing bits as 'housing', then Red Bull optimized the wing over a naked mirror look, these things are clearly out of sorts with the intention. For next year they probably should limit the amount of elements, allow no gaps in 'stalks' etc. And perhaps do a standard mirror part with housing (bigger maybe too?), with let's say a limited amount of room for optimizing shapes for the stalks.

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214270
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Joined: 27 Apr 2019, 18:49

Re: Mercedes W13

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Cue another round of movable aero device debates as that thing bends under load. Sky are frothing at the mouth lol
Team ANTI-HYPE. Prove it, then I’ll anoint you.

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chrstphrln
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Re: Mercedes W13

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bosyber wrote:
10 Jun 2022, 11:31
chrstphrln wrote:
10 Jun 2022, 11:25
That's ridiculous. I hope such nonsense will be banned for 2023.
It is definitely taking a run with the written regulations. Although all teams do a lot more with it than just support the mirrors (see Ferrari for example saying efficiency due to better cockpit flow - that's arguably good use in the rules of a fuel-limited formule ;)

After Ferrari introduced those extra wing bits as 'housing', then Red Bull optimized the wing over a naked mirror look, these things are clearly out of sorts with the intention. For next year they probably should limit the amount of elements, allow no gaps in 'stalks' etc. And perhaps do a standard mirror part with housing (bigger maybe too?), with let's say a limited amount of room for optimizing shapes for the stalks.
Yes. In this case, Mercedes has not even tried to build in a supporting function.
If a "mirror stay" cannot fulfill its function at all because it is completely free in the air, the regulations should be able to put a stop to it.

bosyber
bosyber
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Joined: 15 Sep 2015, 22:41

Re: Mercedes W13

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chrstphrln wrote:
10 Jun 2022, 11:52
bosyber wrote:
10 Jun 2022, 11:31
chrstphrln wrote:
10 Jun 2022, 11:25
That's ridiculous. I hope such nonsense will be banned for 2023.
It is definitely taking a run with the written regulations. Although all teams do a lot more with it than just support the mirrors (see Ferrari for example saying efficiency due to better cockpit flow - that's arguably good use in the rules of a fuel-limited formule ;)

After Ferrari introduced those extra wing bits as 'housing', then Red Bull optimized the wing over a naked mirror look, these things are clearly out of sorts with the intention. For next year they probably should limit the amount of elements, allow no gaps in 'stalks' etc. And perhaps do a standard mirror part with housing (bigger maybe too?), with let's say a limited amount of room for optimizing shapes for the stalks.
In this case, Mercedes has not even tried to build in a supporting function.
If a "mirror stay" cannot fulfill its function at all because it is completely free in the air, the regulations should be able to put a stop to it.
There are several of the other teams too (esp. those little wing bits behind the mirrors, that are in principle no different than this, though yes again, this takes it to a rather different level. I "like" how their reason for adding it is 'none' and just say 'new part added to previous bit that we had', which highlights your point.

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214270
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Joined: 27 Apr 2019, 18:49

Re: Mercedes W13

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chrstphrln wrote:
10 Jun 2022, 11:52
bosyber wrote:
10 Jun 2022, 11:31
chrstphrln wrote:
10 Jun 2022, 11:25
That's ridiculous. I hope such nonsense will be banned for 2023.
It is definitely taking a run with the written regulations. Although all teams do a lot more with it than just support the mirrors (see Ferrari for example saying efficiency due to better cockpit flow - that's arguably good use in the rules of a fuel-limited formule ;)

After Ferrari introduced those extra wing bits as 'housing', then Red Bull optimized the wing over a naked mirror look, these things are clearly out of sorts with the intention. For next year they probably should limit the amount of elements, allow no gaps in 'stalks' etc. And perhaps do a standard mirror part with housing (bigger maybe too?), with let's say a limited amount of room for optimizing shapes for the stalks.
Yes. In this case, Mercedes has not even tried to build in a supporting function.
If a "mirror stay" cannot fulfill its function at all because it is completely free in the air, the regulations should be able to put a stop to it.
It didn’t put a stop to the upper mirror cascades which are in free air though did it?
Team ANTI-HYPE. Prove it, then I’ll anoint you.

bosyber
bosyber
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Joined: 15 Sep 2015, 22:41

Re: Mercedes W13

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'Housing' that is, those flaps around the actual mirrors, right?! Yeah, which is why I mentioned standard parts, seems like the most sensible solution really. Perhaps with a drag reducing flap around it like the wheel wake; but let F1 rule team design it then everyone has it the same and can work with what it there, even if no doubt less optimally integrated into the whole airflow.

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chrstphrln
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Re: Mercedes W13

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214270 wrote:
10 Jun 2022, 11:56
It didn’t put a stop to the upper mirror cascades which are in free air though did it?
That was the door the FIA should have closed in time before such grotesque developments took place.

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henry
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Location: England

Re: Mercedes W13

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To me this “mirror stay” falls in the same category as the “floor edge wing” which is not on the edge or what many would consider a wing. It’s not what it’s called it’s what the detailed geometry regulations allow.
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Truth is confirmed by inspection and delay; falsehood by haste and uncertainty : Tacitus

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Shakeman
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Joined: 21 Mar 2011, 13:31
Location: UK

Re: Mercedes W13

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The wing strake is yet more proof, if needed, if there's a loophole an F1 designer is going to drive a bus through it.

How do we get the Y250 vortex back....? Merc Engineer, hold my set square...

Andi76
Andi76
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Joined: 03 Feb 2021, 20:19

Re: Mercedes W13

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cplchanb wrote:
19 May 2022, 21:09
Andi76 wrote:
19 May 2022, 20:46
PlatinumZealot wrote:
19 May 2022, 20:11
These visually small changes at this stage are a good sign because it means the concept is sound.
I am sorry to say this, but i doubt it is. Why are all the other teams going in a different direction? And why does Mercedes have so many problems? I think they just have the problem that they cannot change this concept in a way that they would need to. They cannot add the pressurisation zone under the sidepod inlets because their inlets go all the way down to the floor. They cannot get more air to the rear and beamwing to drive the floor, because their concept required a huge airbox and engine-cover.They did this to get more air over the top of the diffusor, and now they have to stay with that, because they cannot change everything from the sidepod inlets to the rear-axle. But this would be necessary to do changes like that and this would literally mean a new car. Just adding bigger sidepods, like some people suggested, would not work, because this means less air over the top of the diffusor, but thats an essential part of their concept and they sacrificed airflow to the rear-and beamwing because of that and their whole cooling-system was designed with the intention to get as much air as possible over the top of the diffusor. And now they just cannot change it. I think Mercedes has the problem that they are basically trapped within their concept.
Lets revisit this statement on Monday. AM is doing the exact thing you stated above. They have the merc airbox with RB sidepods. We'll see whos right after this race. :arrow:
Revisit it now, a few races later? Unfortunately i was obviously right by saying Barcelona sucess was track dependant etc. And as Aston Martin seems to improve, while Mercedes still is in a lot of trouble and the gap seems to get even bigger instead of smaller, with porpoising(more or less) solved - it seems to prove what i said since the very beginning of the season - that the Zero-Pod concept is just wrong, for reasons already explained.
Last edited by Andi76 on 10 Jun 2022, 19:59, edited 1 time in total.

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nico5
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Joined: 12 Mar 2017, 18:55

Re: Mercedes W13

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The fact that porpoising made a comeback here and Merc and Ferrari look worst, despite the aero changes made in Spain (where Merc from F1 data looked to be the least affected), is testament to a mechanical solution being the only way out of it. Does anybody know of news of Merc having a new rear suspension in the pipeline? I think I read something about Ferrari working on bringing something later this season. Having a reliable platform to work on in terms of ride height and stiffness seems to be key to extracting performance out of the car this season. If you have to compromise all the time and have to throw away any setup you'd been working on before the weekend as you put the car on track, then you're going nowhere, it's pretty clear by now.

dialtone
dialtone
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Joined: 25 Feb 2019, 01:31

Re: Mercedes W13

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nico5 wrote:
10 Jun 2022, 19:17
The fact that porpoising made a comeback here and Merc and Ferrari look worst, despite the aero changes made in Spain (where Merc from F1 data looked to be the least affected), is testament to a mechanical solution being the only way out of it. Does anybody know of news of Merc having a new rear suspension in the pipeline? I think I read something about Ferrari working on bringing something later this season. Having a reliable platform to work on in terms of ride height and stiffness seems to be key to extracting performance out of the car this season. If you have to compromise all the time and have to throw away any setup you'd been working on before the weekend as you put the car on track, then you're going nowhere, it's pretty clear by now.
Ferrari was very bad in FP1 with the medium DF wing, but wasn't as bad in FP2 with the low DF wing. But indeed without suspension help you can't fix it. Ferrari has a new rear suspension coming in Silverstone I think.

cplchanb
cplchanb
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Joined: 31 Jan 2017, 19:13

Re: Mercedes W13

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Andi76 wrote:
10 Jun 2022, 18:16
cplchanb wrote:
19 May 2022, 21:09
Andi76 wrote:
19 May 2022, 20:46


I am sorry to say this, but i doubt it is. Why are all the other teams going in a different direction? And why does Mercedes have so many problems? I think they just have the problem that they cannot change this concept in a way that they would need to. They cannot add the pressurisation zone under the sidepod inlets because their inlets go all the way down to the floor. They cannot get more air to the rear and beamwing to drive the floor, because their concept required a huge airbox and engine-cover.They did this to get more air over the top of the diffusor, and now they have to stay with that, because they cannot change everything from the sidepod inlets to the rear-axle. But this would be necessary to do changes like that and this would literally mean a new car. Just adding bigger sidepods, like some people suggested, would not work, because this means less air over the top of the diffusor, but thats an essential part of their concept and they sacrificed airflow to the rear-and beamwing because of that and their whole cooling-system was designed with the intention to get as much air as possible over the top of the diffusor. And now they just cannot change it. I think Mercedes has the problem that they are basically trapped within their concept.
Lets revisit this statement on Monday. AM is doing the exact thing you stated above. They have the merc airbox with RB sidepods. We'll see whos right after this race. :arrow:
Revisit it now, a few races later? Unfortunately i was obviously right by saying Barcelona sucess was track dependant etc. And as Aston Martin seems to improve, while Mercedes still is in a lot of trouble and the gap seems to get even bigger instead of smaller, with porpoising solved - it seems to prove what i said since the very beginning of the season - that the Zero-Pod concept is just wrong, for reasons already explained.
baku is a street circuit as well you know... so the characteristics of monaco would probably be similar. they were struggling last year as well in baku so its not surprising that this time its the same. merc has historically focused on the grand picture in terms of track suitability which are purpose built ones. so far its just been temp street circuits. if merc gets demoed in silverstone then we'll know.

wesley123
wesley123
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Re: Mercedes W13

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Andi76 wrote:
10 Jun 2022, 18:16

Revisit it now, a few races later? Unfortunately i was obviously right by saying Barcelona sucess was track dependant etc. And as Aston Martin seems to improve, while Mercedes still is in a lot of trouble and the gap seems to get even bigger instead of smaller, with porpoising(more or less) solved - it seems to prove what i said since the very beginning of the season - that the Zero-Pod concept is just wrong, for reasons already explained.
If the zero-pod was wrong Barcelona wouldn't have been a success. If there is one track on the calendar that is heavily aero-dependent it is Barcelona.
"Bite my shiny metal ass" - Bender

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deadhead
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Joined: 08 Apr 2022, 20:24

Re: Mercedes W13

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its obvious that there is more than one thing wrong with the W13...