Mercedes W13

[Andi76]

I honestly hope Mercedes already had some alternative designs in the works even before launch, as zero-pods have more than a few problems. Suspension is probably the biggest problem of the car, but zero-pods reducing floor-edge vortices (with intakes going all the way to the floor) and leaving such a massive floor area as a cantilever will always make more trouble with bouncing and overall performance.

In this regard alone, it looks like RB/AT/Alpine solution is the best for both floor stifness and performance.

Agree, they should look into this concept if their silverstone update doesn't work

I do not expect it to work, to be honest and they probably would have changed their concept already, as the disadvantages are quite obvious. Mercedes problem is that they cannot really change this concept because it would require a complete redesign of their whole cooling system and basically everything from the sidepod inlets rearwards.

[siskue2005]

I honestly hope Mercedes already had some alternative designs in the works even before launch, as zero-pods have more than a few problems. Suspension is probably the biggest problem of the car, but zero-pods reducing floor-edge vortices (with intakes going all the way to the floor) and leaving such a massive floor area as a cantilever will always make more trouble with bouncing and overall performance.

In this regard alone, it looks like RB/AT/Alpine solution is the best for both floor stifness and performance.

Agree, they should look into this concept if their silverstone update doesn't work

I do not expect it to work, to be honest and they probably would have changed their concept already, as the disadvantages are quite obvious. Mercedes problem is that they cannot really change this concept because it would require a complete redesign of their whole cooling system and basically everything from the sidepod inlets rearwards.

I had posted this before here
They could do something like this


All they need to do is to change the body work panel in the side pods to be larger and have internal stays inside the sidepods, and still maintain their zeropods at the front of the side pod entry. (after all Alpine brought two different wide sidepods to testing which is very easy and cheap to produce.)
The side pods could be somewhat like a ramp from 2019 2020 Racing point.
This will give them more support to the floor preventing it from fluttering if they have internal stays
Also will give good air flow condition by the side pods and will reduce drag very much
This don't need any changes to their cooling solution, its just body panel change

[tuj]

Apart from "drag problems" not really being a thing in F1 due to the power these cars have and it being a downforce-dominated formula

While you are right about the dominance of downforce, it is incorrect to say drag is not a consideration. The cars do not have so much power that they can't transmit it through the wheels, so that means if they are not traction-limited, but rather power-limited in terms of top speed. Obviously drag and power fight each other and power is not enough to make drag meaningless. Exactly the opposite; designers tend to strive for maximization of the -L/D metric.

It's been said that some time ago the designers all realized that the optimal car will accept drag as an acceptable penalty for -L up to about 120mph or so. Above that speed, you want to shed drag. You still produce downforce, but the slope of -L produced per unit speed is less-steep after this point, assuming you can engineer it. This was done through tons of methods, the F-duct, blown rear wing, double DRS, etc. Last year it was said the rear wing were rocking backwards at speed, decreasing AoA and thus reducing drag. The so-called Flexi-aero bits that all do this, bend under a certain load, that's all in the name of drag.

[tuj]

I can't help but wonder how much of Mercedes current woes are the result of the 50m/s wind tunnel regulation? I really don't understand why they did that. If you would run to 75m/s you would cover probably 95% of the corners during the season. Not sure a 50m/s tunnel is much cheaper than a 75m/s tunnel; my understanding was that most anything 60% or 100% tunnels could do at least 100m/s.

The bouncing doesn't happen until a certain speed, which seems to vary with each car, with varying severity. Watching the RBR today, when the chassis was upset by a bump in the street circuit, there was one good bounce but then it quickly dampens. This was how it looked from the T-bar shot. Conversely, the Mercedes would hit that bump and start oscillating, basically the entire straight. It looked like Ham's head was being shaken very badly in comparison to Max and Perez. From outside, it looks like the RBR is using the t-tray/skid plate area almost as like a bump stop. It's constantly sparking but it's also not 100% stiff either; there seems to be some compliance.

Quite frankly I don't understand why the bouncing issue can't be solved with suspension, although I gather it's because of the added restrictions. Seems to me like making the mechanical suspension less-free and taking away most of the sidewall with the new 18"'s, there's a lot to cope with.

[Shakeman]

Quite frankly I don't understand why the bouncing issue can't be solved with suspension, although I gather it's because of the added restrictions. Seems to me like making the mechanical suspension less-free and taking away most of the sidewall with the new 18"'s, there's a lot to cope with.

The biggest issue to cope with is the budget cap. It's no longer possible to throw infinite money and infinite simulation time at problems which means those problems are baked into the car for a very long time and maybe all season.

Gone are the days of turning round a lemon in a few race weekends...which is what a large part of the budget cap was supposed to stop. It's working.

Say the Merc needs new suspension and a new floor but the bean counters say you can have one not both which do you choose? This formula one era is a suspension and floor aero formula and both go hand in hand.

My gut feeling is the current 'solid' suspension setup is a stop-gap solution while they focus on the floor. It just feels like a cheap band-aid solution which may be around for the rest of the year while the 2022 car is a test bed for the floor. The 2023 car will have re-engineered suspension.

[zibby43]

Per LH, he had a “different” rear suspension in Baku this weekend.

I had an experimental part of my car and a different rear suspension so ultimately it’s the wrong one.

[Henri]

https://streamja.com/q54GV
Red bull has a higher ride height than Mercedes and faster... Mercedes should raise the ride height but maybe they.ll be even slower... the red bull has more rake plus faster

[lh13]

So basically Mercedes' own fault. Running the car lowest and yet way off the pace. As I was wondering a few posts back, how bad the car must be for this to be the case.

[tuj]

So basically Mercedes' own fault.... how bad the car must be for this to be the case.

While it's every team's fault if they --- up the design, you are also taking about the team that came in with a solid result today, well better than Ferrari I might add. No that wasn't from pace although there have been moments. The Merc is currently, as they are running it, above mid-field, but not at the level of RBR/Ferrari, clearly. The Merc does appear to have equal amounts of engineering talent and resources invested as we would expect from any of the 3 top teams.

It's been mentioned that this ride height / bouncing issue was identified in 2021. There were talks amount mandating a minimum ride height, specifically because some teams saw this in the simulations and wanted to avoid having to deal with it. This is a cost-cap era now and if things are supposed to be cheaper, you can't create new problems that will require highly complex solutions and expect that to not lead back to the same point we came from.

All the teams by next year will know how to run these floors in a way that lessens the bouncing and still preserves or even increases the downforce, but that's going to be at the expensive of stupid amounts of the resources trying to bend rules to solve an artificial problem. It's not making things any easier.

I think some people are quick to dismiss the amount of stress this is putting on the Merc drivers in particular. Mercedes can either bounce their drivers to death or go slow, apparently that's the choice right now. As another mentioned, the solution at this point is likely to be an entire floor, but that resource investment starts to be balanced against learning opportunities this year, which must not be overlooked, and fresh design for next year. In this way Mercedes needs to evolve parts of the current car in ways that can help them understand the dynamics they currently are struggling with. The zero pod concept is not definitely the issue; it's not clear if it's actually related or not. Likely the down/out wash from the ramps/under-cuts on the wider cars help seal the sides of the floor but honestly I'm not sure if that's as important as it once was. Based on what appear to be modular tunnels in the Merc floor, they are probably able to test different shapes as inserts into the tunnels. Ideally this could be track-specific or package-specific.

[basti313]

So basically Mercedes' own fault.... how bad the car must be for this to be the case.

......
It's been mentioned that this ride height / bouncing issue was identified in 2021. There were talks amount mandating a minimum ride height, specifically because some teams saw this in the simulations and wanted to avoid having to deal with it. T

....
All the teams by next year will know how to run these floors in a way that lessens the bouncing and still preserves or even increases the downforce, but that's going to be at the expensive of stupid amounts of the resources trying to bend rules to solve an artificial problem. It's not making things any easier.

..... As another mentioned, the solution at this point is likely to be an entire floor, but that resource investment starts to be balanced against learning opportunities this year, which must not be overlooked, and fresh design for next year. .....

Good post, but I try to go to the relevant points where I disagree to some degree:
The W13 seems to me to be especially at the rear the lowest car of them all. This is basically backed by the comparisons floating through this forums. The reports and the team radios state that the car is heavily BOTTOMING. Also Toto stated in the post race interview, at high speed there is no suspension anymore. You can easily interpret that the Merc uses a very similar squat rear suspension as last year. At high speed the rear simply collapses, the only suspension left is the tire and due to being low it uncontrollably bottoms the car.

So I think it is NOT the floor. The issue is solely based in the suspension and solving a floor issue would still lead to heavy bottoming on every bump the car finds at high speed.
Every other car also has some degree of porpoising, which is based on the aero, maybe floor. But the amount of bottoming is what counts in the end...as long as there is suspension left is is damped, as soon as there is only tire it is not damped, so it oscillates like on the Merc till the ground.

So I think even if they solve the porpoising by aero, they are still in trouble with bottoming once they excite the tire oscillations in any way.
I fear they need to take away the squat or hope for getting some 3rd element into the suspension.

[214270]

They had a great cam shot in Baku where you could observe the cars head-on down the straight and into Turn 1. I’m more convinced now that Merc are at-sea because they omitted a keel spring instead choosing to pack the area with electronics, making a retrofit near impossible.



Without the extra level of control & unless it’s billiard smooth it’ll continue to be a struggle.

[Evo2racer]

I think Montreal will be much better than Baku, less low speed corners.

Silverstone is going to be a good indicator.

Fully agreed!

However from what I recall there are a few bumps in Montreal like in Baku correct ?

[wjpbill]

I’m no expert but if the problem is suspension related, could the excruciatingly long delay in fixing it be because they need to re-pass crash tests to change it?

They seem to be all pointing to Silverstone when interviewed and I understand the point about street track vs race track but wondered if the fixes, if there are any, require chassis re-testing or something.

I’m asking because I’m curious and it’s driving me around the bend to hear and see nothing other than the words “porpoising”, “bouncing” and “data gathering” non-stop.

[The_Engineer]

I've followed this thread for months now and from a purely engineering viewpoint there is a lot I agree with and a lot more I disagree with.

Personally I think the zero pod is a promising concept, Mercedes obviously do as well, but they seem to have other theories that they want to use and follow and they seem to be conflicting and you can't solve one without cancelling the. benefit of the other.

One example being the low ride height, Mercedes obviously want to run the car as low as possible, but we all see it bottom out and 'bounce' around the lap. A simple solution would be to build in some anti squat into the suspension and it's very easily done, but this could result in a loss of performance, it would probably make the porpoising start at a higher speed at least.

Let's not forget Mercedes are still at the start of their development cycle, until they get the car in a good place they cannot move forward, once they get this issue solved they can start to look at increasing performance. I suspect they will have the fastest car in 2023. I'd also expect others to run zero pods next year if Mercedes do crack it.

[basti313]

I’m no expert but if the problem is suspension related, could the excruciatingly long delay in fixing it be because they need to re-pass crash tests to change it?

No, the mounting points are on the gearbox housing, which can be easily changed. Easy in the way that they tried the "new" suspension only on one car as it is costly and takes certainly a day to be assembled.

I would expect a new floor and wing package to get the rear higher. As said, the issue is zero suspension at high speed. Just changing the suspension will most probably not work. They need to go away from squatting the rear.

This brings us into Silverstone easily if they started to plan this change end of March, as they can not really bring this to Azer or Canada and Spain was too early.