Mercedes W13

[CMSMJ1]

Can we please focus on the W13 itself here please?

We can use Team thread for comparitive elements but this Thread is W13 - the car

Cheers

[matteosc]

Can we please focus on the W13 itself here please?

We can use Team thread for comparitive elements but this Thread is W13 - the car

Cheers

My apologies, I thought we were talking about the car (sidepodes, floor, etc.).
Sometimes it is difficult to distinguish between the car and team threads.

[zibby43]

I think it's wrong to say its not aero surfaces, and also admit that your aero platform has to be run lower which gives you a smaller operating window to combat porpoising. They go hand in hand surely?

The rule set is predicated on running the cars low. Low pressure area under the car, fast flowing air front to back, Venturi tunnels, etc.

Then how come RB generates more downforce than Mercedes by running a greater ride height? They've gotten a more efficient floor? Better downforce generation coming from the body?

Are we sure it does generate more downforce? Mercedes were the fastest team on the straight and in the high speed corners in Barcelona, when the car was working.

Or is it just faster on average because it porpoises/bounces less?

If you want to read why the RB is quick, read this:

https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/arti ... JPZqF.html

It’s nothing to do with peak downforce, but maximizing what the car can produce across a wide range of conditions with consistency because of how well the underfloor works.

[NL_Fer]

The original problem with the W13 was the drivers were unable to attack the corners, because it kept bouncing in th braking area. Dunno how that was in Baku, but it obviously was bouncing halfway the straight.

[prox]

FIA have just released a technical directive indicating that if your car suffers from porpoising you'll need to increase the ride height. No porpoising then you dont have to, they intend to use the skid plank for the metric on this but as yet have not worked out the math to do it. So W13 will be slowed down.

[jhope1923]

FIA have just released a technical directive indicating that if your car suffers from porpoising you'll need to increase the ride height. No porpoising then you dont have to, they intend to use the skid plank for the metric on this but as yet have not worked out the math to do it. So W13 will be slowed down.

Not exactly. It states that it will check vertical G load and set a maximum G drivers should be subject to. Teams will have three practice sessions to figure it out before submitting data to the FIA. If the g loads are outside the mandated threshold, the teams will have to change the car set up.

[hollus]

The new porpoising directive is better discussed over here:
2022 cars 'porpoising' at high speed
or over here:
Opinion on 2022 regulations

[mzivtins]

Does it matter? If the 'body' is stopped out on rubber it should go no lower on that (both) side as that's as low as it goes. It could still 'bump' but should not hit the floor as long as tyre flex is considered.

EDIT: F1 cars might not even have/need bump stops

Again just purely from GT3/GTE etc bump stops tend to have a curve that looks like it could go to infinity, obviously in the real world the deformation turn plastic at a point and the stop will split and be destroyed, but they are so aggressively strong.

In its absolute purest for, coil spring (red line) vs bump stop (blue line), you can see why a bump stop is actually such a great thing to have, and also why even though you would expect it to be hitting a limit, it still has more to give lol


But as others have mentioned, the tyres are there too.

I only know this from the absolute basic level, a good setup on my brother Audi R8 LMS GT3 car runs on the bump stops almost the entire time, the mclaren i have is a bit different with the front being on bump stops almost always and the rear probably half as often, and I dont know why! Thinking low corner exit traction is better with linear spring rates... who knows, im sure the bros on this forum would know exactly why haha

EDIT: Hard to find pictures of F1, but we can see F2 cars of some age runs on the bump stop at the front:

[Goblin42]

W13 in the Pitbox today
low downforce rear wing compared to other cars

[Big Tea]

Does it matter? If the 'body' is stopped out on rubber it should go no lower on that (both) side as that's as low as it goes. It could still 'bump' but should not hit the floor as long as tyre flex is considered.

EDIT: F1 cars might not even have/need bump stops

Again just purely from GT3/GTE etc bump stops tend to have a curve that looks like it could go to infinity, obviously in the real world the deformation turn plastic at a point and the stop will split and be destroyed, but they are so aggressively strong.

In its absolute purest for, coil spring (red line) vs bump stop (blue line), you can see why a bump stop is actually such a great thing to have, and also why even though you would expect it to be hitting a limit, it still has more to give lol
https://s100.iracing.com/wp-content/upl ... gchart.jpg

But as others have mentioned, the tyres are there too.

I only know this from the absolute basic level, a good setup on my brother Audi R8 LMS GT3 car runs on the bump stops almost the entire time, the mclaren i have is a bit different with the front being on bump stops almost always and the rear probably half as often, and I dont know why! Thinking low corner exit traction is better with linear spring rates... who knows, im sure the bros on this forum would know exactly why haha

EDIT: Hard to find pictures of F1, but we can see F2 cars of some age runs on the bump stop at the front:
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/ec/24/5f ... e1a469.jpg

I agree, but at some point the rubber (its not rubber of course) will be fully deformed and any further compression will take a huge increase for a very small deflection. This can easily be miscalculated, but once the driver does a lap it will be plain if the 'plank' is hitting the ground or not, and the preset can be adjusted accordingly by a very small amount.
A handful of laps could give close to as perfect as you can get. A fraction on or off depending how much the driver (or detector now??) can trade off.

Edit, The 'job' of the bump stop is to come into play once the 'suspension' has run out of movement so it would ideally be a last resort.

(that's a nice photograph)

[morefirejules08]

W13 in Canada

[tok-tokkie]

In its absolute purest for, coil spring (red line) vs bump stop (blue line), you can see why a bump stop is actually such a great thing to have, and also why even though you would expect it to be hitting a limit, it still has more to give lol

The blue curve is for a four rate spring. Or a triple rate spring + soft bump stop.

A picture of a triple rate spring.
A bump stop prevents any further deflection so its blue line rises vertically. Because they are usually a cone of rubber there is a small amount of deflection so, in fact, the blue line is slightly sloped to the right.
Looking at the url for the chart I see it is from s100.iracing.com who label it as "bumpstop-springchart". I disagree with them.

[mzivtins]

A picture of a triple rate spring.
A bump stop prevents any further deflection so its blue line rises vertically. Because they are usually a cone of rubber there is a small amount of deflection so, in fact, the blue line is slightly sloped to the right.
Looking at the url for the chart I see it is from s100.iracing.com who label it as "bumpstop-springchart". I disagree with them.

It is just a really simple chart so thats why the bump stop line looks stepped, but a multi-rate spring still wouldn't look like the blue line. A spring cannot take anywhere near the force that a bump stop can, and in GT3/GTE/LMP and most race cars springs are linear.

This again is just a supper simple version, but you can see be the scale of travel, a bump stop should always be an upwards curve

[carisi2k]

W13 in Canada

Hmm I wonder where I have seen some of these designs before?

[siskue2005]

W13 in Canada

Hmm I wonder where I have seen some of these designs before?

May be since Bahrain testing when they introduced those?