Well I hope Merc is currently looking into ways to implement a way to exploit the grey area now that it is out in the open
hypocrite? Moi?
The bold part really puzzles me. Extending the 2mm requirement by a 15 mm radius around the floor hole seems very little change. Unless there is a dramatic stiffness change very locally , but the plank itself seems to prevent that at a 15mm scale.JordanMugen wrote: ↑04 Jul 2022, 05:51https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/f1-f ... /10332153/The current regulations stipulate a maximum deflection of 2mm at the two middle plank holes and no more than 2mm at its rearmost hole in a bid to ensure that the floor is stiff enough.
However, there were claims some teams have managed to cleverly flex the floors by as much as 6mm in total, which would allow them to run with higher rake and much closer to the ground for increased performance without the risk of suffering the ill effects of ground strikes.
Tombazis made clear that the FIA believed teams having 'excessive deformation' of the floor was being done: "to achieve significantly lower ride heights, and hence an indirect aerodynamic gain."
The 2mm tolerance will be rigorously enforced and the stiffness around the floor hole must now be uniform for a radial distance of 15mm outside the periphery – with a variance not exceeding 10 percent either way.
The FIA added: "Competitors will be required to demonstrate compliance with these provisions by way of a detailed inspection of both the CAD and the physical installation, as well as Finite Element analysis."
What's all this about?
Any truth to the rumours that the big springs, found on most of the cars, will also be banned?
Why would it impact the rest of the teams assuming they are not employing the same “loophole”Polite wrote: ↑06 Jul 2022, 11:22I believe that many people will be disappointed with the new TD: first of all because in my opinion it will concern more the RBR than the Ferrari, since the deflections of the Rbr flat bottom are evident, therefore there will not be a rapprochement of the midfield, because Ferrari will always be distant.
moreover, even if it impacted equally on RBR and Ferrari, then I think it would also impact on the rest of the teams. And the midfield would remain substantially the same distance from the leaders.
so we should ask ourselves: do we want to change the rules during the season to bring faster teams closer to less fast ones? Or for ethical reasons, to respect the spirit of the regulation? in the second case, perhaps it would be better to intervene with changes to the 2023 regulation without trying to apply these rules already this year.
Vs some of the things that have been brought in mid-season previously, this one is one of the easiest; same test - different plank location. It also addresses something that IMO is not even describable as ‘clever’ interpretation. 2mm is the plank flex limit in the regs and just because they only test in 1 location doesn’t make the 2mm limit disappear in a different plank location.Polite wrote: ↑06 Jul 2022, 11:22I believe that many people will be disappointed with the new TD: first of all because in my opinion it will concern more the RBR than the Ferrari, since the deflections of the Rbr flat bottom are evident, therefore there will not be a rapprochement of the midfield, because Ferrari will always be distant.
moreover, even if it impacted equally on RBR and Ferrari, then I think it would also impact on the rest of the teams. And the midfield would remain substantially the same distance from the leaders.
so we should ask ourselves: do we want to change the rules during the season to bring faster teams closer to less fast ones? Or for ethical reasons, to respect the spirit of the regulation? in the second case, perhaps it would be better to intervene with changes to the 2023 regulation without trying to apply these rules already this year.
But where is it stated that 2mm is the plank flex limit for the entire plank? To my knowledge, that is not stated anywhere. All that is stated is that 2mm is the flex limit for that particular location under those particular conditions. It is not at all clear that that would also put the limit for the entire plank at 2mm. In fact, if the limit for a section of the plank is 2mm, it would seem very odd if the limit for the entire plank is also 2mm - it essentially means the rest of the plank cannot flex at all.214270 wrote: ↑06 Jul 2022, 12:49Vs some of the things that have been brought in mid-season previously, this one is one of the easiest; same test - different plank location. It also addresses something that IMO is not even describable as ‘clever’ interpretation. 2mm is the plank flex limit in the regs and just because they only test in 1 location doesn’t make the 2mm limit disappear in a different plank location.Polite wrote: ↑06 Jul 2022, 11:22I believe that many people will be disappointed with the new TD: first of all because in my opinion it will concern more the RBR than the Ferrari, since the deflections of the Rbr flat bottom are evident, therefore there will not be a rapprochement of the midfield, because Ferrari will always be distant.
moreover, even if it impacted equally on RBR and Ferrari, then I think it would also impact on the rest of the teams. And the midfield would remain substantially the same distance from the leaders.
so we should ask ourselves: do we want to change the rules during the season to bring faster teams closer to less fast ones? Or for ethical reasons, to respect the spirit of the regulation? in the second case, perhaps it would be better to intervene with changes to the 2023 regulation without trying to apply these rules already this year.
Yeah if you’re looking for the word ‘entire’ it doesn’t exist, but I think the genesis needs to be considered. It was always intended to be the entire plank body, then with evolution of the cars the requirements, tolerances & measurements have been revised to suit. Fast forward to present and we a ruleset which is biased towards the plank front for no good reason given the behaviour of the new cars.DChemTech wrote: ↑06 Jul 2022, 13:06But where is it stated that 2mm is the plank flex limit for the entire plank? To my knowledge, that is not stated anywhere. All that is stated is that 2mm is the flex limit for that particular location under those particular conditions. It is not at all clear that that would also put the limit for the entire plank at 2mm. In fact, if the limit for a section of the plank is 2mm, it would seem very odd if the limit for the entire plank is also 2mm - it essentially means the rest of the plank cannot flex at all.214270 wrote: ↑06 Jul 2022, 12:49Vs some of the things that have been brought in mid-season previously, this one is one of the easiest; same test - different plank location. It also addresses something that IMO is not even describable as ‘clever’ interpretation. 2mm is the plank flex limit in the regs and just because they only test in 1 location doesn’t make the 2mm limit disappear in a different plank location.Polite wrote: ↑06 Jul 2022, 11:22I believe that many people will be disappointed with the new TD: first of all because in my opinion it will concern more the RBR than the Ferrari, since the deflections of the Rbr flat bottom are evident, therefore there will not be a rapprochement of the midfield, because Ferrari will always be distant.
moreover, even if it impacted equally on RBR and Ferrari, then I think it would also impact on the rest of the teams. And the midfield would remain substantially the same distance from the leaders.
so we should ask ourselves: do we want to change the rules during the season to bring faster teams closer to less fast ones? Or for ethical reasons, to respect the spirit of the regulation? in the second case, perhaps it would be better to intervene with changes to the 2023 regulation without trying to apply these rules already this year.
Why it wouldn't apply to the entire plank is simple: because the rules do not describe it doing so. They describe it applying to a section under a given test condition. How to floor should behave outside of those conditions, the teams should seemingly guess (or find out via mindreading?).214270 wrote: ↑06 Jul 2022, 13:48Yeah if you’re looking for the word ‘entire’ it doesn’t exist, but I think the genesis needs to be considered. It was always intended to be the entire plank body, then with evolution of the cars the requirements, tolerances & measurements have been revised to suit. Fast forward to present and we a ruleset which is biased towards the plank front for no good reason given the behaviour of the new cars.DChemTech wrote: ↑06 Jul 2022, 13:06But where is it stated that 2mm is the plank flex limit for the entire plank? To my knowledge, that is not stated anywhere. All that is stated is that 2mm is the flex limit for that particular location under those particular conditions. It is not at all clear that that would also put the limit for the entire plank at 2mm. In fact, if the limit for a section of the plank is 2mm, it would seem very odd if the limit for the entire plank is also 2mm - it essentially means the rest of the plank cannot flex at all.214270 wrote: ↑06 Jul 2022, 12:49
Vs some of the things that have been brought in mid-season previously, this one is one of the easiest; same test - different plank location. It also addresses something that IMO is not even describable as ‘clever’ interpretation. 2mm is the plank flex limit in the regs and just because they only test in 1 location doesn’t make the 2mm limit disappear in a different plank location.
I guess the question to ask is why wouldn’t it apply to the entire plank?
If teams that are experiencing bouncing are already employing this “loop hole then yes they will be hurt. If they’re plank doesn’t deflect beyond 2mm then the TD will have no effect on them.chrisc90 wrote: ↑06 Jul 2022, 13:07would this not hurt the teams that are bouncing down the track with porpoising or natural bouncing?
We’ve seen cars that have been hammering the floor pretty harsh on the rear at times. So one would presume that it is the plank hitting the floor.
Maybe in terms of Red Bull, the ‘ice skate’ could limit the plank from actually hitting the floor at the rear
Well it seems the FIA intended for their tone no more than 2mm, teams found a way to circumnavigate what was intended and not with the new TD the FIA are attempting to fix that.DChemTech wrote: ↑06 Jul 2022, 14:37Why it wouldn't apply to the entire plank is simple: because the rules do not describe it doing so. They describe it applying to a section under a given test condition. How to floor should behave outside of those conditions, the teams should seemingly guess (or find out via mindreading?).214270 wrote: ↑06 Jul 2022, 13:48Yeah if you’re looking for the word ‘entire’ it doesn’t exist, but I think the genesis needs to be considered. It was always intended to be the entire plank body, then with evolution of the cars the requirements, tolerances & measurements have been revised to suit. Fast forward to present and we a ruleset which is biased towards the plank front for no good reason given the behaviour of the new cars.DChemTech wrote: ↑06 Jul 2022, 13:06
But where is it stated that 2mm is the plank flex limit for the entire plank? To my knowledge, that is not stated anywhere. All that is stated is that 2mm is the flex limit for that particular location under those particular conditions. It is not at all clear that that would also put the limit for the entire plank at 2mm. In fact, if the limit for a section of the plank is 2mm, it would seem very odd if the limit for the entire plank is also 2mm - it essentially means the rest of the plank cannot flex at all.
I guess the question to ask is why wouldn’t it apply to the entire plank?
Clear rules have clear wording. The current rules lack that. And we're in a sport where details matter: if one team 'supposes' it applies to the entire plank while it does not,then that team is on the back foot. If a team 'supposes' it does not apply to the entire plank based on the wording, than that team may suddenly find itself penalized (with all due resources spent) because they misinterpreted (or simply guessed wrong) 'the spirit of the rules'. That's not how sporting regulations should work; spirits belong in the liquor cabinet, not in technical regulations. If the 2mm applies to the entire plank, the rules should state that quantitatively and indisputably.
If that was what they intended, then that was what they should have written down! You cannot 'circumnavigate' something that is not stated. And 'from their tone' is not how technical regulations should be interpreted: either something is specified, or it is not.morefirejules08 wrote: ↑06 Jul 2022, 14:44Well it seems the FIA intended for their tone no more than 2mm, teams found a way to circumnavigate what was intended and not with the new TD the FIA are attempting to fix that.DChemTech wrote: ↑06 Jul 2022, 14:37Why it wouldn't apply to the entire plank is simple: because the rules do not describe it doing so. They describe it applying to a section under a given test condition. How to floor should behave outside of those conditions, the teams should seemingly guess (or find out via mindreading?).214270 wrote: ↑06 Jul 2022, 13:48
Yeah if you’re looking for the word ‘entire’ it doesn’t exist, but I think the genesis needs to be considered. It was always intended to be the entire plank body, then with evolution of the cars the requirements, tolerances & measurements have been revised to suit. Fast forward to present and we a ruleset which is biased towards the plank front for no good reason given the behaviour of the new cars.
I guess the question to ask is why wouldn’t it apply to the entire plank?
Clear rules have clear wording. The current rules lack that. And we're in a sport where details matter: if one team 'supposes' it applies to the entire plank while it does not,then that team is on the back foot. If a team 'supposes' it does not apply to the entire plank based on the wording, than that team may suddenly find itself penalized (with all due resources spent) because they misinterpreted (or simply guessed wrong) 'the spirit of the rules'. That's not how sporting regulations should work; spirits belong in the liquor cabinet, not in technical regulations. If the 2mm applies to the entire plank, the rules should state that quantitatively and indisputably.
It’s as simple as that.