Mercedes W13

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atanatizante
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Re: Mercedes W13

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chrisc90 wrote:
14 Jul 2022, 21:41
atanatizante wrote:
14 Jul 2022, 21:22


I back this statement with some evidence proofs:

In both Q1 and Q2 HAM & RUS were fuelled for some 8-9 laps in order to do some 2 or 3 hot laps bearing in mind that they needed 2 laps to warm up the soft tyres ... then in Q3 the cars were fuelled up for only 4 laps which led to not enough load and a slighter raised car with negative consequences:
- a lower downforce level from the Venturi tunnels and
- light bottoming in high-speed corners something they didn`t get rid of yet ...

All these above-mentioned were in conjunction with the soft tyres that were not enough warmed up thus providing less grip, that`s why HAM was aborting the first hot lap even though he set the fastest S1 time up until then ... and last but not least it was the first time in the whole weekend when they run such a low fuel car together with the race PU mode.

...

On a maybe off-topic note, do you think that now after we could see a slightly higher rake RB18 that they are having more downforce coming from the diffuser (with a maybe higher than usual slope) rather than what`s coming out of the Venturi tunnels?
...

Also, the PU mode would have been the same from Q1 onwards as that's when you have to 'lock in' your setup and PU mode. They were never running a higher PU mode in Q3 than Q1 or Q2.

...
Yes, they couldn`t change the ICE mode after the qualy begins but they are allowed to change the ERS modes and usually if not always, drivers are using the highest mode of harvesting and deployment only in Q3 had not even since Q2 ...
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PlatinumZealot
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Re: Mercedes W13

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Considering the crudeness of the floor, and the fact that the car is fast on a smooth track, means the side pods are not to blame.

It's the floor that was the problem.
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Tzk
Tzk
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Re: Mercedes W13

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atanatizante wrote:
14 Jul 2022, 21:22
In both Q1 and Q2 HAM & RUS were fuelled for some 8-9 laps in order to do some 2 or 3 hot laps bearing in mind that they needed 2 laps to warm up the soft tyres ... then in Q3 the cars were fuelled up for only 4 laps which led to not enough load and a slighter raised car with negative consequences:
I'd say that the ride height change through downforce is way higher than through a slight change in fuel load.

Let's assume: laptime 60s, 100kg/h max. fuel flow and 100% throttle for the lap. That's 1.6kg of fuel per lap, you can't consume more than that. So for the difference of 4 laps the difference in car weight is less than 10kg (or ~100N). However the maximum downforce is way higher, even higher than the weight of the whole car (800kg or 8kN). 100N vs. 8kN, that's a factor of 80!

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Vanja #66
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Re: Mercedes W13

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PlatinumZealot wrote:
16 Jul 2022, 03:00
Considering the crudeness of the floor, and the fact that the car is fast on a smooth track, means the side pods are not to blame.

It's the floor that was the problem.
So after 8 years of doing their best to ensure super-stable, super-predictable aero platform with clever suspension, now when underfloor-shape stability is more important then ever - their concept, which can't do the best job providing that stability, is not the major cause of problems? The fact they loose less time on smoother tracks is exactly the proof that their solution is not stable and not predictable enough.
And they call it a stall. A STALL!

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ringo
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Re: Mercedes W13

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The car will go well in France and have an advantage at year's end i suspect.
What we have seen with Ferrari the rear wing is very critical. Having the right balance of downforce in the body and the wings is the solution.
I suspect Merce are still working on getting their floor right to allow themselves to go with thinner wings for more straightline pace.

But as zealot suggested, the sidepods are being overly criticized. This car may well have an advantage but the catch is getting the tuning right.
Likewise why other teams avoid copying the Ferrari. It's really hard to fine tune that concept.
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Shakeman
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Re: Mercedes W13

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Vanja #66 wrote:
16 Jul 2022, 15:10
PlatinumZealot wrote:
16 Jul 2022, 03:00
Considering the crudeness of the floor, and the fact that the car is fast on a smooth track, means the side pods are not to blame.

It's the floor that was the problem.
So after 8 years of doing their best to ensure super-stable, super-predictable aero platform with clever suspension, now when underfloor-shape stability is more important then ever - their concept, which can't do the best job providing that stability, is not the major cause of problems? The fact they loose less time on smoother tracks is exactly the proof that their solution is not stable and not predictable enough.
One could also read the opposite, that Merc's floor was so bad that it was their zero-pods which kept them in 3rd place and without this design they could've been in lower mid-field territory. I don't see any data that says the sidepods are the issue. So, given Merc is the third fastest team comfortably faster than most of the rest of the field who are running more conventional side pod arrangements seems to suggest that their concept is not the limiting factor.

Merc never ran extreme levels of rake like other teams so it wouldn't surprise me if they has less IP in this area or had less well developed simulation tools than others.

Merc obviously missed a significant trick with the bendy plank, how significant that is to performance will be seen soon. It's unlikely to be the silver bullet but Ferrari and RB wouldn't have done it if there wasn't laptime reduction in doing so.

In previous seasons this would've been a relative non-event, Merc would've thrown money at the problem(s) and developed their way out of the hole in relative quick order. The cost-cap has worked and any developmental failings cost you the best part of the season and destroy your title chances.

I'm with ringo, I expect Merc to have a winning car by year's end.
Last edited by Shakeman on 16 Jul 2022, 18:11, edited 1 time in total.

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: Mercedes W13

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Agreed. I won't be surprised if Mercedes ends the year neck and neck with RedBull and Ferrari or even ahead of them!

Vanja I respect your work.. But we all know that sometimes our simulations has maybe 10% of the reality not captured in them. And this margin of error is enough to change the picture when even 1% makes a difference between stable in a corner or not... Or porpoising or not.

It's a great effort but I am not convinced by the CFD model just yet. The reality is that the cars have different front wings and floors and that hasn't been accounted for in the CFD. Exact models would be ideal but yeah obviously we use the best way we can.

Spa and Monza are tracks that im greatly looking forward to to see how efficient Mercedes package really is.

Hungary will be fun. But it's more of a medium speed sort of circuit after they improved the asphalt.
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Vanja #66
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Re: Mercedes W13

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PlatinumZealot wrote:
16 Jul 2022, 17:21
Vanja I respect your work..
Thank you PZ.

What I mentioned earlier today has nothing to do with CFD and lets leave other dirrct aerodynamic disadvantages aside. As an engineer, I'm sure you'll agree that a longer cantilever is far more prone to deflection than a short, fully braced one. I'm also sure you'll agree a floor is actually far from a cantilever, as it is not attached to the tub along the entire circumference, allowing for a lot of play where there can't be any with an actual cantilever.

For any given load case, you "fight" the stress with geometry and deflection depends on the material and stress. So to reduce stress you can change material (so use steel, which is too heavy) or increase the rigidity with geometry. In this case - make the floor thicker, a lot thicker. How does this affect aerodynamics? Do the rules allow for such thickness? How big is the weight penalty?

Substantial floor deflection can and does make things very difficult for a driver, having an unpredictable car due to unpredictable aerodynamic behaviour. This is very evident with Mercedes this year, on every race, hard to set up and hard to handle. If they would choose to change shape of the floor again, for more predictability, that could only be achieved by giving up some downforce. Their cureent lack of cornering speed can be solved, at least to some extent, once they have a more predictable car. The rest would have to come from bigger rear wing.
And they call it a stall. A STALL!

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Tzk
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Re: Mercedes W13

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Shakeman wrote:
16 Jul 2022, 17:01
Merc never ran extreme levels of rake like other teams so it wouldn't surprise me if they has less IP in this area or had less well developed simulation tools than others.
Not only this, they used some trick suspension to keep their aero platform stable instead of trying to extend the working range. So the 22 regs have hurt them more than others. By a) simplification of suspension dampers and thus introducing the necessity for a wide working range of the floor and b) by their lack of tools/IP to develop a floor which can cope with it.

OO7
OO7
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Re: Mercedes W13

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Vanja #66 wrote:
16 Jul 2022, 18:24
Their cureent lack of cornering speed can be solved, at least to some extent, once they have a more predictable car. The rest would have to come from bigger rear wing.
Vanja, are you talking about a bumpy surface or worst case scenario? I ask because Mercedes' cornering speeds were among the highest around the fast corners of Silverstone.

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: Mercedes W13

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The redBull floor has arched tunnels running lenghtwise. The other cars have a more flat roof to their floor. The arch is stiffer and it might have some aerodynamic effect in maining the vortices too. Im sort of expecting Mercedes to go in this direction.
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Henri
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Re: Mercedes W13

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https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/for ... -upgrades/
Engineers say the best upgrade is yet to come.. and its gonna be secret

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AR3-GP
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Re: Mercedes W13

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A lot of this is unpredictable. If the other teams stand still, Merc will catch them presumably with the very next update. Maybe the next update is the suspension again?
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OO7
OO7
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Re: Mercedes W13

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PlatinumZealot wrote:
16 Jul 2022, 19:47
The redBull floor has arched tunnels running lenghtwise. The other cars have a more flat roof to their floor. The arch is stiffer and it might have some aerodynamic effect in maining the vortices too. Im sort of expecting Mercedes to go in this direction.
That's a really interesting point you raise about stiffness PZ. My thoughts about the curved RB tunnels focused solely on airflow/vorticity reasons, like the 1993 Nissan P35 here: http://www.mulsannescorner.com/nissanp35-5.html

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Stu
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Re: Mercedes W13

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Henri wrote:
18 Jul 2022, 02:37
https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/for ... -upgrades/
Engineers say the best upgrade is yet to come.. and its gonna be secret
That will work well in the era of “show & tell”…
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