Mercedes W13

[IGOSNELL]

Merc still has a lot to do. No other team is using this zero side pod design. Look at Mclaren they have moved towards what is more like a red bull design and they qualified 5th. So where is this drag comming from, zero side pods?

[OO7]

So now that Mclaren have gone the Red Bull side pod shape, Mercedes are now the only Mercedes powered team with zero pods and the only Mercedes powered team not running a RB/Ferrari shaped side pod.

Have we seen in speed traps yet that the other teams are achieving much higher top speeds than Mercedes due to reduced drag from their new sidepods?

I was looking at the wrong images. i can see what you mean now with the McLaren sidepod upgrade. I still wouldn't call them RB style pods though, although they do share similarities it's more a hybrid.

[Tzk]

Merc still has a lot to do. No other team is using this zero side pod design.

The big question is if they are already abandoning the concept or not. I guess we'll see next year when they keep these pods or won't. I'm not sure Merc is willing to invest time into this years car to make the switch to yet another sidepod shape after already switching at the start of the season.

[marcel171281]

Merc still has a lot to do. No other team is using this zero side pod design. Look at Mclaren they have moved towards what is more like a red bull design and they qualified 5th. So where is this drag comming from, zero side pods?

The sidepods might be slimmer, at the top part anyway, but other parts are not. The engine cover higher up is pretty 'fat' and this concept also exposes the rear tyres a lot more. I don't think (but this is guess work, I am not a aerodynamica specialist) that was never designed to have low drag. It is designed to have more downforce.

I btw think that the term 'zero-pods' is pretty exaggerated. They are very different in shape, but they are still very much there:

[AA_2019]

Side pod design has a significant impact on how the front tyre wake is managed.

The RB style, which many are converging to, involves keeping the front tyre wake separated to the outer side of the car rather than mix with the "clean" air from the more central part of the car.

The ramp down on the side pods feeds mainly "clean" air to the top of the diffuser / beam wing area.

I would really like to see an explanation of how the Merc side pods interact with the front tyre wake management.

[mclaren111]

[Big Tea]

Merc still has a lot to do. No other team is using this zero side pod design.

The big question is if they are already abandoning the concept or not. I guess we'll see next year when they keep these pods or won't. I'm not sure Merc is willing to invest time into this years car to make the switch to yet another sidepod shape after already switching at the start of the season.

Mclaren had little to gain by persevering. They have not looked like they are going to pull ahead of Merc and they are being chased hard by Alpine so can not afford 'delayed gratification' or they will be too far behind by the time it arrives.
Merc are comfortable where they are but longing to have a bit more, so can afford the time to get it ready to carry over to next season, or if they find no benefit in continuing the 'other' style seems more simple to use as a fallback.

Merc are in the position of having nothing to lose everything to gain by sticking with it.

[ing.]

Merc still has a lot to do. No other team is using this zero side pod design. Look at Mclaren they have moved towards what is more like a red bull design and they qualified 5th. So where is this drag comming from, zero side pods?

The sidepods might be slimmer, at the top part anyway, but other parts are not. The engine cover higher up is pretty 'fat' and this concept also exposes the rear tyres a lot more. I don't think (but this is guess work, I am not a aerodynamica specialist) that was never designed to have low drag. It is designed to have more downforce.

I btw think that the term 'zero-pods' is pretty exaggerated. They are very different in shape, but they are still very much there:
https://www.racefans.net/wp-content/upl ... _HiRes.jpg

Agree. Also, purely from a “projected frontal area” the Merc design is not a reduction of this value compared to other designs because any reduction in frontal area of the pods is masked by the front tires. Add in the additional section of the aforementioned fatter engine cover higher up and I don’t really see any advantage to the design.

All the mods Merc seem to have been making upstream of the sidepods—with turning vanes and suspension fairings—look to be trying to create a downwash ahead of the venturi inlets but doing so in a less efficient way than the others who have the bluntness of the sidepods to create the same effect without the penalty of losses from the vortex-shedding turning vanes.

[Andi76]

Merc still has a lot to do. No other team is using this zero side pod design.

The big question is if they are already abandoning the concept or not. I guess we'll see next year when they keep these pods or won't. I'm not sure Merc is willing to invest time into this years car to make the switch to yet another sidepod shape after already switching at the start of the season.

They most probably are. Toto Wolff himself said yesterday on Premiere Germany that the new update has not brought what they hoped for, and that it is clear now that their concept went down like a lead ballon(he literally said "das Konzept war ein Schuss in den Ofen", but went down like a lead ballon is the english proverb). If Toto himself finally admits that their concept is just wrong, they are definetely abandoning the concept.

[cplchanb]

Merc still has a lot to do. No other team is using this zero side pod design.

The big question is if they are already abandoning the concept or not. I guess we'll see next year when they keep these pods or won't. I'm not sure Merc is willing to invest time into this years car to make the switch to yet another sidepod shape after already switching at the start of the season.

They most probably are. Toto Wolff himself said yesterday on Premiere Germany that the new update has not brought what they hoped for, and that it is clear now that their concept went down like a lead ballon(he literally said "das Konzept war ein Schuss in den Ofen", but went down like a lead ballon is the english proverb). If Toto himself finally admits that their concept is just wrong, they are definetely abandoning the concept.

honestly from all the posts ive seen you put up hardly any of them have been constructive discussion, rather just bashing at supposed failed concepts and being derogatory towards the team. take it to the team thread or just actually discuss the technical elements in this thread!

[ringo]

The concept of the car is neither right nor wrong from what I can tell.
We are all forgetting that the car had normal sidepods during testing. Mercedes have all the data to verify which was quicker.
I am patiently watching out the season, and will await the technical director's feedback on whether the concept was a disaster or not.
The team has all the data, and they will know for sure if their drag issue is from the wings needing to be bigger to compensate for the lack of downforce from the floor.. whether their suspension is limiting them from exploiting the floor's potential etc.
They know what's going on, and each race they continue to learn more about what they have now.
So I don't think us armchair experts can conclude when this concept has reached the end of the road. Only the team can say. And they usually do.
Remember the W12 reached its limit and the team came out and said they will not be able to get more out of the concept, and they resorted to engine doping.
So i believe they will let the public know when the end of the road comes and why this car is not at front.

[ringo]

Looking at the car, I think the elephant in the room is the crash structure wing.
That wing should be made to be more aerodynamically neutural. It's down wash could be messing with everything downstream of it, and the downwash will vary at different speeds.

Did the CFD guys check the effect of the wing?
I would if I had the time, but unfortnately i do not. If given a model of the car, i would run the simulation.

[rifrafs2kees]

I'm a mechanical engineer, not an aerodynamicist so take my input as speculation. My thought is that there's some spanwise flow on the side pods due to the them tapering from the base towards the longitudinal centerline. If this is true, then I can imagine lower diffuser effectiveness without downwash from the crash structure wing.

[hollus]

A few posts obviously and almost purposefully off topic have been deleted rather than moved to the team thread, where they should have been posted in the first place.

[Vanja #66]

downwash will vary at different speeds.

Eh, no. It doesn't. Downwash is affected only by lift coefficient and wing planform geometry, so basically - wing geometry. Without this downwash, the car would have even less downforce. I'm sure the drag/downforce trade-off was well worth it, it usually is with these downwashing elements, they can really make a difference.

Mercedes did a brilliant job with rule examination to introduce this element. If they manage to redesign their sidepods for 2023, to widen them, keep them sloped rearwards and keep the wing, they might have a good chance to generate more downforce than Ferrari and Red Bull can.