2022 - McLaren Formula 1 Team

[mwillems]

I think this car has the same issue as the SF1000 of 2020 for Ferrari (NB : I made this parallel because Binotto described the failure of the SF1000 this way). It was design with a certain amount of drag "considering" it will have the most powerful engine in the back of the car. In both case it went wrong (illegal engine for Ferrari, and Merc not being as powerful as before/being runned conservative).

So the car is performing well on twisty tracks such as Monaco, Imola but it's very problematic for most of the track and especially against the monster RBPT Engine, the low drag Alpine etc.

That’s a theory that I also share… There is a reason why most often than Mercedes, McLaren and Aston Martin are at the bottom of the speed charts.

The Mercedes issue came more from Porpoissing and the Mclaren from being awful in it's aero, not enough downforce to start with and then slowly the drag issue reared it's head.

it could be engine related but I'm inclined to think we just made mistakes.

These cars are so sensitive to everything now, tailwinds, tyre temps, track temps, Astrology... it could be something so trivial causing massive setbacks that they haven't yet unlocked.

[SmallSoldier]

Right from earlier this year Key said it was easier to drive. How much easier wasn't clear and your right in that it still retains some of the quirks (DNA from last years car as Dan mentioned) which at times cause issues pushing it to the limits but overall in handling and balance it's heading in the right direction but that drag and lack of top speed is a big problem.

https://www.speedcafe.com/2022/02/26/ne ... -to-drive/

I struggle to understand how there could be a carryover from the previous generation of cars into this one when:

A) You have a completely different aerodynamic model that creates downforce in a different way
B) You have a different suspension rule set
C) McLaren has a completely different suspension, not only compared to the rest of the field, but more importantly to last year’s
D) The car is carrying a new tub, new chassis, new wheelbase
E) The tires are different in construction
F) The car has exchange strengths and weaknesses… It has turned slow corners from a weakness into an strength and it has turned top speed from a strength into a weakness.

I mean, there is not a lot that I can think of that has been carried over from previous generation of cars into this one… Therefore, how can the “DNA” be carried over?

No one knew before this season how the cars would feel once they reach the track… Even when very close to the first testing session in Barcelona the driver’s from all the teams weren’t sure what to expect from the cars when they actually hit the track… Is that Daniel refers as DNA carried over simply a characteristic of this new generation of cars? Because that seems more plausible.

I had read that some of the traits had carried over but I have no idea how.

One thing I always believed and I think was semi confirmed, is that the front end of the cars in this formula isn't as strong and also doesn't not enjoy rolling or braking into the corner. I don't know if that is still true though, so in that sense it could be that the car is better but the formula has pushed back some of the good work we did on improving the front end.

The other piece is the behaviour from corner to corner, this is different to other cars as it was last year and this is still a trait of the car.

But you're right, how the hell can it be? The only thing I can think of is the fact that the cars have very complicated behaviour in which they try to help the car rise under braking and drop at the front under acceleration. Counter to what should happen normally. The only thing I can think of is that the manner in which the Mclaren does this is not the usual?

But I'm probably miles off.

Similar thought process for me… In regards to behavior changing from corner to corner, what that spells for me is that the aero map isn’t as stable through the corner phase, therefore the balance will change from corner entry to corner exit. Is that unique to McLaren though? In this new formula, we really don’t know.

[SmallSoldier]

I think this car has the same issue as the SF1000 of 2020 for Ferrari (NB : I made this parallel because Binotto described the failure of the SF1000 this way). It was design with a certain amount of drag "considering" it will have the most powerful engine in the back of the car. In both case it went wrong (illegal engine for Ferrari, and Merc not being as powerful as before/being runned conservative).

So the car is performing well on twisty tracks such as Monaco, Imola but it's very problematic for most of the track and especially against the monster RBPT Engine, the low drag Alpine etc.

That’s a theory that I also share… There is a reason why most often than Mercedes, McLaren and Aston Martin are at the bottom of the speed charts.

The Mercedes issue came more from Porpoissing and the Mclaren from being awful in it's aero, not enough downforce to start with and then slowly the drag issue reared it's head.

it could be engine related but I'm inclined to think we just made mistakes.

These cars are so sensitive to everything now, tailwinds, tyre temps, track temps, Astrology... it could be something so trivial causing massive setbacks that they haven't yet unlocked.

There is no denying that the MCL36 is subpar when compared to the cars at the front… The question is why and I still stress that isn’t as simple as just “the car is too draggy”… I keep bringing up the Aston Martin because they did a great job of copying the RB18, from their aero philosophy, to the tunnel (entrance, strakes, volume, shape, etc)… So, if Aston Martin has the same aero concept / philosophy as Red Bull and one is more than 10 mph faster than the other, there has to be more than just a sidepod concept, tunnel entrance or keel shape that is responsible for it (in France, Top Speed of the AMR was the same as the MCL)

In my mind there are 2 factors that seem to be making the largest difference in that regard:

A) Traction: Which is more a factor of mechanical grip / suspension than aero
B) Engine Power / Deployment: Which would make the largest effect at the end of the straights and top speed

I believe that if McLaren simply copied the RB18, they probably would still struggle in terms of top speed versus the RBR (as Aston Martin is)… Therefore, in my opinion, the sidepod concept isn’t really the reason why they struggle as much as they are.

[mwillems]

It's outwash I think but not necessarily sidepod related, but I suspect that was part of it.

The way the sidepods are configured needs to work in tune with the way the floor spits out flow from the tunnels, so they are closely related.

I suspect that they may well have worked fine together but as an overall package was sub optimal.

Deployment was certainly mentioned as the achilles heal of the Merc engine so this might have contributed.

The car is only as fast as its fastest driver, and whilst that is Norris that doesn't mean that the car is driven to 90% or even 80%, maybe Alonso would come in and regularly get top 5.

I'm not saying he would or that Lando is sub par, just that perhaps in the right hands this car is dynamite, I guess we should be open to it.

[mwillems]

Sometimes I feel like drop a small grenade and walk out of the room

[SmallSoldier]

It's outwash I think but not necessarily sidepod related, but I suspect that was part of it.

The way the sidepods are configured needs to work in tune with the way the floor spits out flow from the tunnels, so they are closely related.

I suspect that they may well have worked fine together but as an overall package was sub optimal.

Deployment was certainly mentioned as the achilles heal of the Merc engine so this might have contributed.

The car is only as fast as its fastest driver, and whilst that is Norris that doesn't mean that the car is driven to 90% or even 80%, maybe Alonso would come in and regularly get top 5.

I'm not saying he would or that Lando is sub par, just that perhaps in the right hands this car is dynamite, I guess we should be open to it.

Agreed that this car may be faster on someone else’s hands… But not 1 second faster, lol

[mwillems]

It's outwash I think but not necessarily sidepod related, but I suspect that was part of it.

The way the sidepods are configured needs to work in tune with the way the floor spits out flow from the tunnels, so they are closely related.

I suspect that they may well have worked fine together but as an overall package was sub optimal.

Deployment was certainly mentioned as the achilles heal of the Merc engine so this might have contributed.

The car is only as fast as its fastest driver, and whilst that is Norris that doesn't mean that the car is driven to 90% or even 80%, maybe Alonso would come in and regularly get top 5.

I'm not saying he would or that Lando is sub par, just that perhaps in the right hands this car is dynamite, I guess we should be open to it.

Agreed that this car may be faster on someone else’s hands… But not 1 second faster, lol

I could...



not.

[Rushu]

I think we wasted a big chance by rejecting Audi. A deal like Mclaren/Mercedes, Red Bull/Porsche might have been possible.
Going back to being #1 is hard enough, but being a customer who has to outdo the works team is an extra challenge that we really didn't need.

[runningmanz]

Information coming from the team is that it is more balanced but slower, but I wouldn't say I'd picked up on anything to say it was easier to drive. IO have heard that it does not behave like most cars and I'd heard snippets of it changing behaviour in corners, which is the worst trait ever.

Right from earlier this year Key said it was easier to drive. How much easier wasn't clear and your right in that it still retains some of the quirks (DNA from last years car as Dan mentioned) which at times cause issues pushing it to the limits but overall in handling and balance it's heading in the right direction but that drag and lack of top speed is a big problem.

https://www.speedcafe.com/2022/02/26/ne ... -to-drive/

I struggle to understand how there could be a carryover from the previous generation of cars into this one when:

A) You have a completely different aerodynamic model that creates downforce in a different way
B) You have a different suspension rule set
C) McLaren has a completely different suspension, not only compared to the rest of the field, but more importantly to last year’s
D) The car is carrying a new tub, new chassis, new wheelbase
E) The tires are different in construction
F) The car has exchange strengths and weaknesses… It has turned slow corners from a weakness into an strength and it has turned top speed from a strength into a weakness.

I mean, there is not a lot that I can think of that has been carried over from previous generation of cars into this one… Therefore, how can the “DNA” be carried over?

No one knew before this season how the cars would feel once they reach the track… Even when very close to the first testing session in Barcelona the driver’s from all the teams weren’t sure what to expect from the cars when they actually hit the track… Is that Daniel refers as DNA carried over simply a characteristic of this new generation of cars? Because that seems more plausible.

Unless you are at McLaren actively involved with the car I guess the exact details of these traits carryed over or DNA carryover as Dan put it are difficult to ascertain but Dan definitely mentioned he felt there was some. So maybe not much in the way of physical components etc but some of the handling or braking characteristics for example.

"“I think there’s certainly still some of the DNA in the car which has kind of carried over from last year,” he said. “Some of the things that I struggled with or couldn’t always adapt well to, I think some of that is still in the car."

https://www.foxsports.com.au/motorsport ... e7a3812e0a

This is a very good podcast late last year with Key where he mentions despite there being alot different now with these new regs there is some carryover from last year and he mentions some characteristics that they wanted to bring across which they believe are strengths in the previous car. He also mentions about how the McLaren has unique traits and talks with Buxton about Lando and Dan saying they want the same things as well.

[SmallSoldier]

Right from earlier this year Key said it was easier to drive. How much easier wasn't clear and your right in that it still retains some of the quirks (DNA from last years car as Dan mentioned) which at times cause issues pushing it to the limits but overall in handling and balance it's heading in the right direction but that drag and lack of top speed is a big problem.

https://www.speedcafe.com/2022/02/26/ne ... -to-drive/

I struggle to understand how there could be a carryover from the previous generation of cars into this one when:

A) You have a completely different aerodynamic model that creates downforce in a different way
B) You have a different suspension rule set
C) McLaren has a completely different suspension, not only compared to the rest of the field, but more importantly to last year’s
D) The car is carrying a new tub, new chassis, new wheelbase
E) The tires are different in construction
F) The car has exchange strengths and weaknesses… It has turned slow corners from a weakness into an strength and it has turned top speed from a strength into a weakness.

I mean, there is not a lot that I can think of that has been carried over from previous generation of cars into this one… Therefore, how can the “DNA” be carried over?

No one knew before this season how the cars would feel once they reach the track… Even when very close to the first testing session in Barcelona the driver’s from all the teams weren’t sure what to expect from the cars when they actually hit the track… Is that Daniel refers as DNA carried over simply a characteristic of this new generation of cars? Because that seems more plausible.

Unless you are at McLaren actively involved with the car I guess the exact details of these traits carryed over or DNA carryover as Dan put it are difficult to ascertain but Dan definitely mentioned he felt there was some. So maybe not much in the way of physical components etc but some of the handling or braking characteristics for example.

"“I think there’s certainly still some of the DNA in the car which has kind of carried over from last year,” he said. “Some of the things that I struggled with or couldn’t always adapt well to, I think some of that is still in the car."

https://www.foxsports.com.au/motorsport ... e7a3812e0a

This is a very good podcast late last year with Key where he mentions despite there being alot different now with these new regs there is some carryover from last year and he mentions some characteristics that they wanted to bring across which they believe are strengths in the previous car. He also mentions about how the McLaren has unique traits and talks with Buxton about Lando and Dan saying they want the same things as well.

Thanks for the link! Having a hard time understanding how things were carried over with such a different platform… Maybe it’s just Daniel’s way of explaining why he is still off the pace?

[runningmanz]

I struggle to understand how there could be a carryover from the previous generation of cars into this one when:

A) You have a completely different aerodynamic model that creates downforce in a different way
B) You have a different suspension rule set
C) McLaren has a completely different suspension, not only compared to the rest of the field, but more importantly to last year’s
D) The car is carrying a new tub, new chassis, new wheelbase
E) The tires are different in construction
F) The car has exchange strengths and weaknesses… It has turned slow corners from a weakness into an strength and it has turned top speed from a strength into a weakness.

I mean, there is not a lot that I can think of that has been carried over from previous generation of cars into this one… Therefore, how can the “DNA” be carried over?

No one knew before this season how the cars would feel once they reach the track… Even when very close to the first testing session in Barcelona the driver’s from all the teams weren’t sure what to expect from the cars when they actually hit the track… Is that Daniel refers as DNA carried over simply a characteristic of this new generation of cars? Because that seems more plausible.

Unless you are at McLaren actively involved with the car I guess the exact details of these traits carryed over or DNA carryover as Dan put it are difficult to ascertain but Dan definitely mentioned he felt there was some. So maybe not much in the way of physical components etc but some of the handling or braking characteristics for example.

"“I think there’s certainly still some of the DNA in the car which has kind of carried over from last year,” he said. “Some of the things that I struggled with or couldn’t always adapt well to, I think some of that is still in the car."

https://www.foxsports.com.au/motorsport ... e7a3812e0a

This is a very good podcast late last year with Key where he mentions despite there being alot different now with these new regs there is some carryover from last year and he mentions some characteristics that they wanted to bring across which they believe are strengths in the previous car. He also mentions about how the McLaren has unique traits and talks with Buxton about Lando and Dan saying they want the same things as well.

Thanks for the link! Having a hard time understanding how things were carried over with such a different platform… Maybe it’s just Daniel’s way of explaining why he is still off the pace?

No probs. Well again Key mentioned some carryover in characteristics and strengths they wanted to keep and Dan mentioned this DNA carryover. I think theres not enough credit given to Dan with his honesty about the car and again he has only ever had an ongoing issue in McLaren designed cars which have been far from great. I believe he's just explaining about what he knows a good car should feel like. There's definitely some quirks about this design still this year, I think I'll take their word on there being carryover given what they have stated.

Getting back to how our drivers are handling the McLaren. It's kind of irrelevant though in the grand scheme of things if driver A can drive this substandard car .3 a lap quicker than driver B, it's still miles off the leaders and not great to drive. I think that's the main takeaway from Dan's statement about the DNA carryover and how the car feels to drive. At least both guys though want the same things and Dan certainly knows what a well handling, fast car should feel like. Having said that I think the situation has improved from last year in regards to how he feels in the car and some improvements in the cars balance and handling but again its not a fast car, nowhere near it still. Lots of work to do.

I just hope they can sort these things out sooner rather than later because obviously its painful to see the car's pace slower than last year. That article about how far behind we got with the brake issue sheds some light on some of the difficulties we are facing too in regards to our upgrades. Maybe this slow methodical approach with the upgrades after the setbacks will pay off but it seems a long way off still at the moment.

[runningmanz]

Anyone have any later updates on the new wind tunnel? This article from Feb talking to Seidl mentioned it was on track for late 2022 so some input on the car updates in 2023 which would be great news even if its not fully designed using this new wind tunnel like the 2024 car would be.

"Speaking to Formel1.de, he said, as quoted by Motorsport-Total.com: “In terms of infrastructure, we are absolutely on track.

“Our wind tunnel is in the middle of construction, with the aim of completion at the end of 2022 – so that we will then tackle the development of the car step by step over the course of the 2023 season.”"

https://www.planetf1.com/news/mclaren-w ... 0of%202022.

[mclaren111]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G9RsUp8 ... el=THERACE


Nice video...

[Mansell89]

Have to say I’m looking forward to Budapest- this medium speed twisting circuit should suit us - we shouldn’t have a section where we lose disproportionate lap time (like a super slow corner or any high speed straight sections).

Over on the car thread, it does look like we’ve bought an updated nose to the car.

Big Rear Wings on the competition but haven’t seen ours yet

[PhillipM]

Anyone have any later updates on the new wind tunnel?

Be together and running by the end of the year but not calibrated and certified till well into 2023. Late enough that it won't have much input even into next years car bar the later update packages.