2022 Hungarian Grand Prix - Hungaroring, July 29 - 31

[chrisc90]

https://i.redd.it/c25ew2ij8ze91.jpg

I seen 2.1 pop up on the pit timer on Tv and thought that was mighty quick. Legends.

[Sieper]

Look man... I don't really care about this pissing contest. Ham was fast in the last stint and fast in the 2nd stint, I wrote as much in the race summary. I like Ham, your attacks towards me are rubbish.

The simple point is that LEC was plenty fast to win the race and while SAI was slower on Mediums and Softs, LEC was at least on par with the car that had the best pace on softs, so people claiming that Ferrari was slow on softs don't have a leg to stand. LEC and HAM pace on the last stint was entirely comparable.

As for tire age, if you are so good to replay live timing, which you really cared about making it one of your main points, you should know that LEC stopped 3 laps after HAM and came out with tires 1 lap older than HAM, so he had a total of 2 laps younger tires. But obviously you know that, because you're so good at replaying live timing, right?

Have a nice day.

Attack?? STOP being dramatic. I'm simply pointing out that your statement is incorrect. And it is. Surely you knew that? I'm not even interested or trying to say who was fastest in the race blah blah blah. In fact I would agree that before he put on the hard tyres Charles was probably fastest in the race. I was merely correcting something you summised which was wrong. And it's not the first.

And why the saltiness about live timing and also the general tone of your response. Calm down. We all get it wrong sometimes

When you come out and say "everyone is good at doing live timing" you are insulting me and my work which, last time I checked, is provided for free. There was no reason to say any of that.

Your work, whilst highly appreciated (really, thank you) a lot of effort, is in the end just what we are doing here, discussing the race based on things we spotted. I fully understand the sentiment by justmoi, please just accept another viewpoint and react to it, instead of feeling offended as you put more work into it. There are many things to be taken away from a race, many interpretations of a set of facts.

[PlatinumZealot]

So if we take out all the laps were the car was slow, and say the laps where he had DRS were also slow, then it’s fast?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Eliminate the outliers from the data first. Say remove the or four slowest laps from Lec and Ham.

Ok, so tried removing the first 2, LEC warming up his tires + outlap, so starting from 56 and removed 62 and 64 where Ham made his passes:

https://i.imgur.com/5IizZbW.jpeg

Still slower.

LEC: 1.22.375
HAM: 1.22.529
VER: 1.23.422
SAI: 1.23.733

Still convinced LEC wasn't fastest?

You know what?

I looked at the data myself.

The stints of Lewis and Charles are not really comparable, but we can force things a bit.
There were never close at all in tyre type/tyre life/fuel in their last two stints but for lap 57 to lap 60. A minuscule sample of 4 laps.

Lewis lap 57 to 60
81.386
81.942
81.831
81.805
average =81.741


Charles lap 57 to 60
81.622
81.988
81.762
81.890
average =81.8155


Lewis is faster here on older tyres. And even still, I wouldn't read much into this small sample. This is why data interpretation is important, or you will mislead people who are not numerically inclined.

[PlatinumZealot]

Anyone know why Ferrari were slow on the softs too. I didn't expect Sainz to be overtaken by Hamilton running the same tyre who was 9/10s behind on lap 54ish

Same reason as why they were slow in quali. Couldn't switch them on well. But to be clear, LEC was the fastest car on track in the last stint.

https://i.imgur.com/g6A91xd.jpeg

Lat 54 to 70, average lap times for the drivers here:
LEC: 1.22.320
HAM: 1.22.560
VER: 1.23.324
SAI: 1.23.647

Aside from the stint on hards, LEC was consistently the fastest average pace in the race.

EDIT: updated graph with average laps rather than 90%ile laps, average laps in the race remain unchanged of course.

I'm sorry but this summation is just plain wrong unless you're reading into data what you want to see. And people shouldn't just blindly accept all these data interpretations as facts.

Anyone with the F1 app can simply 'replay live timing' which I've just done. Lewis was the fastest car in the last stint. Right until when he caught Sainz first and then Russell which off course slowed him down. After that, ten seconds behind with about 4 laps left it was surely just bring the car home. Noteworthy that Leclerc had newer soft tyres as well but wasn't faster. Leclerc also had no one to fight until finishing 0.3 behind Perez on the final lap. Being in the position he was fighting for every point he would have had every reason to be pushing to catch Perez.

To use the average speed over all of the last stint to say Leclerc was quickest is, well, assuning there's no wrong intent, plain wrong.

Also an aside, no data showed conclusively that Mercedes ran a low df setup. That is almost ridiculous to say that

You are correct. Smart man.
Dialtone does great work with his charts, but I agree with you that his data analysis of the laps (not the velocity traces - his trace interpretation is OK) are a bit too black and white.

I had a look a the data myself and Charles was a tenth to two tenths slower in comparable parts of their last stints. Dialtone just did a big sweeping average which is so not right. Context is important. When did the pitstop? Were they on similar tyres? where they battling or fighting through traffic? were they told to save fuel? Dirty air etc. Context is so important.

[zeph]

I think I finally figured it out; Ferrari hates winning.

Congrats to Verstappen/RBR. Class of the field. Even a spin couldn’t stop them. Unless Merc pulls a rabbit out of the hat over the break, this season is done and dusted.

[Scorpaguy]

I believe we have now evolved this season into one where we go into each race with 3 teams having a legitimate chance of winning. That is a good thing.

[dialtone]

You are correct. Smart man.
Dialtone does great work with his charts, but I agree with you that his data analysis of the laps (not the velocity traces - his trace interpretation is OK) are a bit too black and white.

I had a look a the data myself and Charles was a tenth to two tenths slower in comparable parts of their last stints. Dialtone just did a big sweeping average which is so not right. Context is important. When did the pitstop? Were they on similar tyres? where they battling or fighting through traffic? were they told to save fuel? Dirty air etc. Context is so important.

Of course context matters, but if you only include Hamilton's context and pick the laps where you think he was unimpeded or felt optimistic about his future... is that context or your bias working?

Anyway, this is a bit too much for the time it takes me to do this stuff. You are right, people can tell whatever story they want with data.

[Spacepace]

Max has got his spins sorted I must say.Somehow he is good a spinning without going off track, and keeping all four wheels spinning, no flat spots.

Don't know if it is skill or luck, but it happened several times. E.g. this year Silverstone qualy. It was also his second 'spin to win' after Germany 2019.

Was it Brazil 2016? Where he had that jaw dropping sideways slide down the main straight and somehow saved it? The guys got nerves of steel

[mendis]

Nah, no way bias to Red Bull. How is it bias if one guy talks to one team principle more than the others, but yet you got presenters doing the exact opposite.

I mean:


"are you being handed this championship"

Well, they are being handed the championship. The other team with the car that is equal to their own keeps throwing away race wins and points.

Don't get me wrong, RBR and Max are maximising their chances, but they are being helped by Ferrari shooting themselves in both feet seemingly at every other race.

The way you are saying this and the sarcastic way Simon was saying that, there is a huge difference. It wreaks pain and frustraton on Simon's part that it was Max's team winning and not being challenged, rather than feeling pain of Ferrari losing and not having a genuine fight as a true F1 fan. They are two different things. Natalie was being a **** when she was asking Perez in post race interview in Spain if the team screwed him, at which point Red Bull was clear who was going to take the challeng to Ferrari, which all points to how much they dislike Max's team, while they don't have so much of a problem with Horner himself, who is a brit. They all ganged up and bigging up Perez to see if he can beat Max after Spain. I personally, painfully feel "red bull are being handed the championship" as Ferrari is screwing themselves over and over again. But it's not quite the same.

Paul comes off anti-Hamilton/Mercedes kind of man and Damon, Johnny, Ted, Simon, Natalie comes across as genuine anti-Max, pro-brit drivers and only Brundle, Anthony and Rachel comes across as neutral. It's not that hard to figure it out.

[mendis]

So who came out best from " Are you being handed the championship?" FFF.. Are we live on air??
Horner needs no kid gloves he is up for a squabble any time and not often he comes out second.

I recon he is pleased he was asked that

Totally shocking question to ask really. What a way to undermine the efforts and hard work of all the team who work flat out throughout the season, from pitstops, garage mechanics, strategists, drivers etc etc.

Ferrari have gifted Max way more points and race wins than he should have gotten under normal circumstances. Convince me of the opposite. If you cannot do it, the question was pure reality.

We need to be painfully honest here than saying, "Ferrari have gifted". When everything is going according to Ferrari's plan, Red Bull throws a shrewed dice move and Ferrari succumbs to it. That's credit to Red Bull team and not just for Max as a driver. They induce those mistakes in the opposite teams and have been doing it since last year. Even in this race, Max was to start the race on hards, but coming through the formation laps, they figured it might not be a good idea and switched to softs at which point, Ferrari had gone mediums way. Then when Leclerc was comfortably leading, Red Bull brought in Max to undercut a host of cars and Ferrari forced themselves to react and did the exact wrong thing. When you look at how Red Bull operates, it's unfair to say, they are being gifted wins and points. I wish if Ferrari would have had a strategy team like that, this season would have been over by now.

[Henri]

Eliminate the outliers from the data first. Say remove the or four slowest laps from Lec and Ham.

Ok, so tried removing the first 2, LEC warming up his tires + outlap, so starting from 56 and removed 62 and 64 where Ham made his passes:

https://i.imgur.com/5IizZbW.jpeg

Still slower.

LEC: 1.22.375
HAM: 1.22.529
VER: 1.23.422
SAI: 1.23.733

Still convinced LEC wasn't fastest?

You know what?

I looked at the data myself.

The stints of Lewis and Charles are not really comparable, but we can force things a bit.
There were never close at all in tyre type/tyre life/fuel in their last two stints but for lap 57 to lap 60. A minuscule sample of 4 laps.

Lewis lap 57 to 60
81.386
81.942
81.831
81.805
average =81.741


Charles lap 57 to 60
81.622
81.988
81.762
81.890
average =81.8155


Lewis is faster here on older tyres. And even still, I wouldn't read much into this small sample. This is why data interpretation is important, or you will mislead people who are not numerically inclined.

Well said... where are you getting the lap times from ? I need them too

[Oleo]

Instead of just looking at data, dont forget about motivation, Hamilton was fighting for p3, p2, maybe even racewin if Verstappen made a small mistake again due to his (clutch slip?) issues. Leclerc was fighting for a p5 maximum, having had his racewin thrown away... again.. I am sure Hamilton was pushing somewhat harder than Leclerc, so probably Leclerc had the faster car on that last soft stint.

[Sevach]

Well, Lewis clears Norris lap 12, at this point he is 7.7 seconds behind third place man Leclerc (still limited by Sainz).
Between lap 12 and lap 39 (Leclerc pits a second time) the gap extends to 12.8 despite Charles having a fight with Russell for the lead and Hamilton having a clear track at all times.

Leclerc was the faster man and the one who could've given Max a race.
But the pace of the Mercedes is finally enough to keep the the 2 others honest.

[saviour stivala]

Yes. Leclerc was the fastest man, but only at one point on his first stint on the only medium tyre set he had left for race day. The FERRARI race was doomed after FP2 on Friday, contrary to the fantastic wisdom pushed all over the place, including on here, hammering FERRARI for putting Leclerc on hards. FERRARI could have done only one of two things, either put Leclerc on hards or on used softs, because those were the tyres they had left. This in no way to absolve them from the huge mistake they done by the way they handled their tyre allotment by end of FP2 Friday.

[omegacel71]

Why wasn't Leclerc able to clear Perez in the last stint? I don't think there was much of a gap between them when he came out of the pits