2022 Hungarian Grand Prix - Hungaroring, July 29 - 31

[Cs98]

And never had a good teammate either..

What we do know is Max is not the fastes over a lap. Perez can beat him 1 out of 5 times.
Perez by no means is a qualy specialist.

Max is something like 80-9 vs teammates over the past 5 years. That is far and away the best head to head record of any driver on the grid. Ruling him out of the conversation as best qualifier is straight fantalk. Other "good qualifiers" over that timeframe, Leclerc 65-29, Lewis 63-30.

As with all of these comparisons, one has to take account of who was in the other car. Some drivers are fast over a single lap even if their race pace is less noteworthy - the "Trulli effect" we might call it. Not all of Max's team mates have been speedy over even one lap - your Albons and your Gaslys. That's not Max's problem, of course, as he can only go up against the guys that the team employs.

Of course the teammates are important, and that stat includes a season against Ricciardo as well. You may contend his teammates haven't been as strong as the others, but the numbers are also much stronger than the others to compensate for that.

And the one problem with writing off Gasly and Albon as not quick over a lap is you do so almost solely based on their performance relative to Verstappen. But take Verstappen out of the picture and those guys have a very decent quali record in F1.

I think he has a very strong claim to the "best qualifier" title, backed up by half a decade of trouncing his teammates like no other.

[Just_a_fan]

Max is something like 80-9 vs teammates over the past 5 years. That is far and away the best head to head record of any driver on the grid. Ruling him out of the conversation as best qualifier is straight fantalk. Other "good qualifiers" over that timeframe, Leclerc 65-29, Lewis 63-30.

As with all of these comparisons, one has to take account of who was in the other car. Some drivers are fast over a single lap even if their race pace is less noteworthy - the "Trulli effect" we might call it. Not all of Max's team mates have been speedy over even one lap - your Albons and your Gaslys. That's not Max's problem, of course, as he can only go up against the guys that the team employs.

Of course the teammates are important, and that stat includes a season against Ricciardo as well. You may contend his teammates haven't been as strong as the others, but the numbers are also much stronger than the others to compensate for that.

And the one problem with writing off Gasly and Albon as not quick over a lap is you do so almost solely based on their performance relative to Verstappen. But take Verstappen out of the picture and those guys have a very decent quali record in F1.

I think he has a very strong claim to the "best qualifier" title, backed up by half a decade of trouncing his teammates like no other.

Is that "best qualifier ever" or "best qualifier at the moment"?

And "trouncing his team mates" is also difficult to state - there are other variables that play in a team that have an affect on the relative performances of each team mate. Look at this year - George has done very well against Lewis. But we know that the drivers have had two very different roles in the team this year with Lewis dong a lot of the outlier option testing, George doing more normal things. But looking at the simple numbers doesn't show that.

Would Max have "trounced" Bottas? Or Lewis? Or Lando? (To add a Ricciardo comparison as someone both have shared a team with). We have no way of knowing and therefore any attempt to define someone as "the best" is entirely without foundation.

Any attempt to name a "best" is a fool's errand. We can only suggest who are "amongst the best" and that's as good as we can do. Max is certainly in that group.

[Big Tea]

As with all of these comparisons, one has to take account of who was in the other car. Some drivers are fast over a single lap even if their race pace is less noteworthy - the "Trulli effect" we might call it. Not all of Max's team mates have been speedy over even one lap - your Albons and your Gaslys. That's not Max's problem, of course, as he can only go up against the guys that the team employs.

Of course the teammates are important, and that stat includes a season against Ricciardo as well. You may contend his teammates haven't been as strong as the others, but the numbers are also much stronger than the others to compensate for that.

And the one problem with writing off Gasly and Albon as not quick over a lap is you do so almost solely based on their performance relative to Verstappen. But take Verstappen out of the picture and those guys have a very decent quali record in F1.

I think he has a very strong claim to the "best qualifier" title, backed up by half a decade of trouncing his teammates like no other.

Is that "best qualifier ever" or "best qualifier at the moment"?

And "trouncing his team mates" is also difficult to state - there are other variables that play in a team that have an affect on the relative performances of each team mate. Look at this year - George has done very well against Lewis. But we know that the drivers have had two very different roles in the team this year with Lewis dong a lot of the outlier option testing, George doing more normal things. But looking at the simple numbers doesn't show that.

Would Max have "trounced" Bottas? Or Lewis? Or Lando? (To add a Ricciardo comparison as someone both have shared a team with). We have no way of knowing and therefore any attempt to define someone as "the best" is entirely without foundation.

Any attempt to name a "best" is a fool's errand. We can only suggest who are "amongst the best" and that's as good as we can do. Max is certainly in that group.

You can not include 'Ever' as the format has changed. Previously, in the days of Schumacher for instance there was 1 hour and you do your best time when ever on unlimited tyres. Schumacher would pound around getting respectable times all day, but each getting a fraction better (or off) and he would have his best time late if nothing changed.

Now there is a chance not to go through the first 2 Q's due to flags, rain, other problems in pit or car and even if you get to Q 3 you get maybe 3 runs at it and are limited by tyres

[chrisc90]

I could never take Max’s stats vs his teammates that seriously. Redbull prioritizes him so much that I don’t think it’s really fair to the other guy. Max can prove a lot if he goes to another team and shows the same level of dominance he’s had over his teammates on one lap. At the moment I think his record is somewhat meaningless because the simple fact he is not always driving the same car as his teammate and car. development is definitely geared towards his liking. Redbull finally admitted that last year although they have somewhat backtracked it this year. But it’s been my belief for years. Let him go to Mercedes’ and dominate George Russell. I will be impressed then.

“Valterri it’s james”

[Cs98]

As with all of these comparisons, one has to take account of who was in the other car. Some drivers are fast over a single lap even if their race pace is less noteworthy - the "Trulli effect" we might call it. Not all of Max's team mates have been speedy over even one lap - your Albons and your Gaslys. That's not Max's problem, of course, as he can only go up against the guys that the team employs.

Of course the teammates are important, and that stat includes a season against Ricciardo as well. You may contend his teammates haven't been as strong as the others, but the numbers are also much stronger than the others to compensate for that.

And the one problem with writing off Gasly and Albon as not quick over a lap is you do so almost solely based on their performance relative to Verstappen. But take Verstappen out of the picture and those guys have a very decent quali record in F1.

I think he has a very strong claim to the "best qualifier" title, backed up by half a decade of trouncing his teammates like no other.

Is that "best qualifier ever" or "best qualifier at the moment"?

And "trouncing his team mates" is also difficult to state - there are other variables that play in a team that have an affect on the relative performances of each team mate. Look at this year - George has done very well against Lewis. But we know that the drivers have had two very different roles in the team this year with Lewis dong a lot of the outlier option testing, George doing more normal things. But looking at the simple numbers doesn't show that.

Would Max have "trounced" Bottas? Or Lewis? Or Lando? (To add a Ricciardo comparison as someone both have shared a team with). We have no way of knowing and therefore any attempt to define someone as "the best" is entirely without foundation.

Any attempt to name a "best" is a fool's errand. We can only suggest who are "amongst the best" and that's as good as we can do. Max is certainly in that group.

At the moment.

It's really not difficult to state that with a record like that. George vs Lewis is 7-6 in favor of GR over half a season. That can't be swept under the rug but at the same time it's not necessarily representative because it's half a season and it's close. 80-9 over 5 seasons is neither close nor a small sample size. It's a trouncing alright.

"Any attempt to name a "best" is a fool's errand", and I never said he was unequivocally the "best". I said he had a strong case, in response to that guy who (unsurprisingly judging by previous posts) suggested he wasn't even in the conversation.

[Just_a_fan]

Of course the teammates are important, and that stat includes a season against Ricciardo as well. You may contend his teammates haven't been as strong as the others, but the numbers are also much stronger than the others to compensate for that.

And the one problem with writing off Gasly and Albon as not quick over a lap is you do so almost solely based on their performance relative to Verstappen. But take Verstappen out of the picture and those guys have a very decent quali record in F1.

I think he has a very strong claim to the "best qualifier" title, backed up by half a decade of trouncing his teammates like no other.

Is that "best qualifier ever" or "best qualifier at the moment"?

And "trouncing his team mates" is also difficult to state - there are other variables that play in a team that have an affect on the relative performances of each team mate. Look at this year - George has done very well against Lewis. But we know that the drivers have had two very different roles in the team this year with Lewis dong a lot of the outlier option testing, George doing more normal things. But looking at the simple numbers doesn't show that.

Would Max have "trounced" Bottas? Or Lewis? Or Lando? (To add a Ricciardo comparison as someone both have shared a team with). We have no way of knowing and therefore any attempt to define someone as "the best" is entirely without foundation.

Any attempt to name a "best" is a fool's errand. We can only suggest who are "amongst the best" and that's as good as we can do. Max is certainly in that group.

At the moment.

It's really not difficult to state that with a record like that. George vs Lewis is 7-6 in favor of GR over half a season. That can't be swept under the rug but at the same time it's not necessarily representative because it's half a season and it's close. 80-9 over 5 seasons is neither close nor a small sample size. It's a trouncing alright.

"Any attempt to name a "best" is a fool's errand", and I never said he was unequivocally the "best". I said he had a strong case, in response to that guy who (unsurprisingly judging by previous posts) suggested he wasn't even in the conversation.

It can be "swept under the rug" when they weren't driving even remotely similar cars. Which was the point.

And not sure where the 80-9 comes from, it's at least a dozen against him, and they were all, bar one, with Danny Ric. Albon never managed it, neither did Gasly. Perez only once. And that only tells you about the strength of his team mates - no one is going to say that Albon or Gasly are up there with Max, Charles, Nando, George, etc., are they? I don't know, maybe they are.

Anyway, as said, it's all a bit silly.

[Just_a_fan]

I could never take Max’s stats vs his teammates that seriously. Redbull prioritizes him so much that I don’t think it’s really fair to the other guy. Max can prove a lot if he goes to another team and shows the same level of dominance he’s had over his teammates on one lap. At the moment I think his record is somewhat meaningless because the simple fact he is not always driving the same car as his teammate and car. development is definitely geared towards his liking. Redbull finally admitted that last year although they have somewhat backtracked it this year. But it’s been my belief for years. Let him go to Mercedes’ and dominate George Russell. I will be impressed then.

“Valterri it’s james”

Sergio doesn't need that. He just gets out of the way without being told...

I'll be interested to see if Max ever gets let through and then gives the place back as with Lewis and Valterri in Hungary in 2017. Probably won't find himself in a similar position, I guess, as it was unusual.

[Cs98]

Is that "best qualifier ever" or "best qualifier at the moment"?

And "trouncing his team mates" is also difficult to state - there are other variables that play in a team that have an affect on the relative performances of each team mate. Look at this year - George has done very well against Lewis. But we know that the drivers have had two very different roles in the team this year with Lewis dong a lot of the outlier option testing, George doing more normal things. But looking at the simple numbers doesn't show that.

Would Max have "trounced" Bottas? Or Lewis? Or Lando? (To add a Ricciardo comparison as someone both have shared a team with). We have no way of knowing and therefore any attempt to define someone as "the best" is entirely without foundation.

Any attempt to name a "best" is a fool's errand. We can only suggest who are "amongst the best" and that's as good as we can do. Max is certainly in that group.

At the moment.

It's really not difficult to state that with a record like that. George vs Lewis is 7-6 in favor of GR over half a season. That can't be swept under the rug but at the same time it's not necessarily representative because it's half a season and it's close. 80-9 over 5 seasons is neither close nor a small sample size. It's a trouncing alright.

"Any attempt to name a "best" is a fool's errand", and I never said he was unequivocally the "best". I said he had a strong case, in response to that guy who (unsurprisingly judging by previous posts) suggested he wasn't even in the conversation.

It can be "swept under the rug" when they weren't driving even remotely similar cars. Which was the point.

And not sure where the 80-9 comes from, it's at least a dozen against him, and they were all, bar one, with Danny Ric. Albon never managed it, neither did Gasly. Perez only once. And that only tells you about the strength of his team mates - no one is going to say that Albon or Gasly are up there with Max, Charles, Nando, George, etc., are they? I don't know, maybe they are.

Anyway, as said, it's all a bit silly.

Whatever, you don't want to credit Russell, I do. I think he has put in a very strong performance coming into Hamilton's team, quali and race. I'm not gonna sweep that under the rug, likewise I won't draw massive conclusions from it because it's only half a season.

80-9 comes from the past 5 years, like I stated.

"no one is going to say that Albon or Gasly are up there with Max, Charles, Nando, George, etc., are they?". No, but nonetheless they should have managed to outqualify Verstappen once in a while with the talent they do have, and they are talented no doubt.

[Just_a_fan]

At the moment.

It's really not difficult to state that with a record like that. George vs Lewis is 7-6 in favor of GR over half a season. That can't be swept under the rug but at the same time it's not necessarily representative because it's half a season and it's close. 80-9 over 5 seasons is neither close nor a small sample size. It's a trouncing alright.

"Any attempt to name a "best" is a fool's errand", and I never said he was unequivocally the "best". I said he had a strong case, in response to that guy who (unsurprisingly judging by previous posts) suggested he wasn't even in the conversation.

It can be "swept under the rug" when they weren't driving even remotely similar cars. Which was the point.

And not sure where the 80-9 comes from, it's at least a dozen against him, and they were all, bar one, with Danny Ric. Albon never managed it, neither did Gasly. Perez only once. And that only tells you about the strength of his team mates - no one is going to say that Albon or Gasly are up there with Max, Charles, Nando, George, etc., are they? I don't know, maybe they are.

Anyway, as said, it's all a bit silly.

Whatever, you don't want to credit Russell, I do. I think he has put in a very strong performance coming into Hamilton's team, quali and race. I'm not gonna sweep that under the rug, likewise I won't draw massive conclusions from it because it's only half a season.

80-9 comes from the past 5 years, like I stated.

"no one is going to say that Albon or Gasly are up there with Max, Charles, Nando, George, etc., are they?". No, but nonetheless they should have managed to outqualify Verstappen once in a while with the talent they do have, and they are talented no doubt.

80-9 is wrong no matter where it's come from. Danny out qualified Max around a dozen times. Sergio has done it once so far. Sure, it's a small error but if we're talking figures, let's get them right.

As for George, I think he's the real deal and I said so before this season started. But one can not ignore the fact that they were not driving the same car. Since the team decided to go back to "normal" weekends, Lewis has outscored George in every race. It'll be interesting to see how the rest of the season goes in that particular battle.

Are Albon and Gasly talented? Yes, they are. Are they at the level of Max? No. Max is one of the top drivers of his generation - perhaps even the top, just as others have been before and others will be in the future (assuming F1 survives). We're lucky that we have a number of drivers at such a high level on the grid at the moment and that, if the cars are close, we should have some good seasons in the next few years.

With Charles and George and Lando along with Max, we have the possibility of a classic period in F1. There are always a small number of stand out drivers at any point in F1, Max is one of those at this point in time.

[mzso]

Neither of them qualify as one of the best drivers the way I see it. Schumacher and Senna were collision causing jerks/bullies who had a lot of bias towards them. Hamilton just drove the utterly fastest car while being decidedly better than Bottas, marginally better than Rosberg, and not at all better than a newcomer Russel.

I wouldn't usually reply to a post like this, but I felt I had to because it was just too special.

Not sure I've seen so much ignorance in two sentences for quite some time.

You mean so much truth.

[TimW]

It can be "swept under the rug" when they weren't driving even remotely similar cars. Which was the point.

And not sure where the 80-9 comes from, it's at least a dozen against him, and they were all, bar one, with Danny Ric. Albon never managed it, neither did Gasly. Perez only once. And that only tells you about the strength of his team mates - no one is going to say that Albon or Gasly are up there with Max, Charles, Nando, George, etc., are they? I don't know, maybe they are.

Anyway, as said, it's all a bit silly.

Whatever, you don't want to credit Russell, I do. I think he has put in a very strong performance coming into Hamilton's team, quali and race. I'm not gonna sweep that under the rug, likewise I won't draw massive conclusions from it because it's only half a season.

80-9 comes from the past 5 years, like I stated.

"no one is going to say that Albon or Gasly are up there with Max, Charles, Nando, George, etc., are they?". No, but nonetheless they should have managed to outqualify Verstappen once in a while with the talent they do have, and they are talented no doubt.

80-9 is wrong no matter where it's come from. Danny out qualified Max around a dozen times. Sergio has done it once so far. Sure, it's a small error but if we're talking figures, let's get them right.

As for George, I think he's the real deal and I said so before this season started. But one can not ignore the fact that they were not driving the same car. Since the team decided to go back to "normal" weekends, Lewis has outscored George in every race. It'll be interesting to see how the rest of the season goes in that particular battle.

Are Albon and Gasly talented? Yes, they are. Are they at the level of Max? No. Max is one of the top drivers of his generation - perhaps even the top, just as others have been before and others will be in the future (assuming F1 survives). We're lucky that we have a number of drivers at such a high level on the grid at the moment and that, if the cars are close, we should have some good seasons in the next few years.

With Charles and George and Lando along with Max, we have the possibility of a classic period in F1. There are always a small number of stand out drivers at any point in F1, Max is one of those at this point in time.

Irrespective of their overall level, I think it is actually interesting that some drivers are relatively good qualifiers, while others seem better racers.

Some stats:
Driver Poles Wins
Hamilton 103 103
Vettel 57 53
Verstappen 16 28
Alonso 22 32
Rosberg 30 23
Bottas 20 10
Leclerc 16 5

Looking at this Max seems a better racer than qualifier, while Leclerc is better in qualifying than races. But that does not mean Max is a poor qualifier.

Stats are skewed a bit of course by car behavior, e.g. Mercedes supreme qualy modes. I would say Lewis is a better racer than qualifier actually, if you look at the stats vs Bottas and Rosberg, it is in the races where he makes the biggest difference.

[Just_a_fan]

80-9 is wrong no matter where it's come from. Danny out qualified Max around a dozen times. Sergio has done it once so far. Sure, it's a small error but if we're talking figures, let's get them right.

As for George, I think he's the real deal and I said so before this season started. But one can not ignore the fact that they were not driving the same car. Since the team decided to go back to "normal" weekends, Lewis has outscored George in every race. It'll be interesting to see how the rest of the season goes in that particular battle.

Are Albon and Gasly talented? Yes, they are. Are they at the level of Max? No. Max is one of the top drivers of his generation - perhaps even the top, just as others have been before and others will be in the future (assuming F1 survives). We're lucky that we have a number of drivers at such a high level on the grid at the moment and that, if the cars are close, we should have some good seasons in the next few years.

With Charles and George and Lando along with Max, we have the possibility of a classic period in F1. There are always a small number of stand out drivers at any point in F1, Max is one of those at this point in time.

Irrespective of their overall level, I think it is actually interesting that some drivers are relatively good qualifiers, while others seem better racers.

Some stats:
Driver Poles Wins
Hamilton 103 103
Vettel 57 53
Verstappen 16 28
Alonso 22 32
Rosberg 30 23
Bottas 20 10
Leclerc 16 5

Looking at this Max seems a better racer than qualifier, while Leclerc is better in qualifying than races. But that does not mean Max is a poor qualifier.

Stats are skewed a bit of course by car behavior, e.g. Mercedes supreme qualy modes. I would say Lewis is a better racer than qualifier actually, if you look at the stats vs Bottas and Rosberg, it is in the races where he makes the biggest difference.

Interesting point TimW. Indeed, Max had 6 wins before his first pole. Lewis took his first win off his first pole and had 6 poles with 4 wins in that first season. It was a competitive car, of course, which always helps, especially in qualifying, where Max didn't have the a top two car until 2021 and 2022 - he did, however, have great pace and made sure he was nearby should the leaders fail - which, of course, netted him a good number of wins before 2021 - 10 of his 28 to date. I guess it helps if you're not also fighting for the title as you can try strategies that are a bit odd and difficult to counter. Something Red Bull are usually very good at doing over the years, indeed.

Not sure any of that tells us who is better at what, however, but it is fun to look at these things.

[Sieper]

Whatever, you don't want to credit Russell, I do. I think he has put in a very strong performance coming into Hamilton's team, quali and race. I'm not gonna sweep that under the rug, likewise I won't draw massive conclusions from it because it's only half a season.

80-9 comes from the past 5 years, like I stated.

"no one is going to say that Albon or Gasly are up there with Max, Charles, Nando, George, etc., are they?". No, but nonetheless they should have managed to outqualify Verstappen once in a while with the talent they do have, and they are talented no doubt.

80-9 is wrong no matter where it's come from. Danny out qualified Max around a dozen times. Sergio has done it once so far. Sure, it's a small error but if we're talking figures, let's get them right.

As for George, I think he's the real deal and I said so before this season started. But one can not ignore the fact that they were not driving the same car. Since the team decided to go back to "normal" weekends, Lewis has outscored George in every race. It'll be interesting to see how the rest of the season goes in that particular battle.

Are Albon and Gasly talented? Yes, they are. Are they at the level of Max? No. Max is one of the top drivers of his generation - perhaps even the top, just as others have been before and others will be in the future (assuming F1 survives). We're lucky that we have a number of drivers at such a high level on the grid at the moment and that, if the cars are close, we should have some good seasons in the next few years.

With Charles and George and Lando along with Max, we have the possibility of a classic period in F1. There are always a small number of stand out drivers at any point in F1, Max is one of those at this point in time.

Irrespective of their overall level, I think it is actually interesting that some drivers are relatively good qualifiers, while others seem better racers.

Some stats:
Driver Poles Wins
Hamilton 103 103
Vettel 57 53
Verstappen 16 28
Alonso 22 32
Rosberg 30 23
Bottas 20 10
Leclerc 16 5

Looking at this Max seems a better racer than qualifier, while Leclerc is better in qualifying than races. But that does not mean Max is a poor qualifier.

Stats are skewed a bit of course by car behavior, e.g. Mercedes supreme qualy modes. I would say Lewis is a better racer than qualifier actually, if you look at the stats vs Bottas and Rosberg, it is in the races where he makes the biggest difference.

I think you arrived at the wrong conclusion. If you have more wins than poles imho the more likely (but these broad strokes are not black and white) conclusion is it is more likely you simply weren’t in the fastest car and still won than that you are a poor qualifier.

[chrisc90]

Technically you could do it poles or race wins vs number of GP's entered and work it out as a percentage. That way you can fairly include the previous generations where number of races were a lot less. I worked that out a while back and was quite interesting numbers with a few hovering around the 30-33% mark of race wins vs GPs participated in.

But data can be made to look however you want it to, given enough tweaking and interpretation.

[RZS10]