F1 2017 bloated / overweight 728 kg (vs e.g. 1991)

[gold333]

I semi-agree that the sport had rules to limit speed since the beginning but the Weickershof protocol adopted (mainly post Senna's crash) had profound "castrating" effects on the cars. the effects of which are only starting to wear off 20-25 years later.

What do you mean by "wearing off"? Ten years from 1994 we had cars which lapped 5-6 second faster will smaller engines and all the restrictions you mention. Without such restrictions I recon we'd see 7-8G cornering and drivers would not be physically able to finish the race.

I think I'm being extremely clear and friendly towards you. With wearing off I mean exactly what I said. Effects to slow the cars down started to wear off lately.

Cars were narrowed from 2.0m to 1.8m to slow them down in 1998. This effect will wear off in 2017 and the old size will be reverted.

Cars were given grooved tires to slow them down in 1998, this effect wore off in 2009 and the old slicks were reverted.

Care were given 15 inch tires to slow them down in 1993, this effect will wear off in 2017 and the old 18inch size will be reverted.

Yes you would have seen 7-8g cornering forces in 2000-2005 already, had Weickershof not been implemented post Senna's death. In fact mid way through 1993 there was talk of introducing G-suits for F1 drivers in the period 1995-1998 if development continued at the then current rate. The 1993 electronic cars with hydraulic and electronic brakes inc. ABS were braking at 6.5G on some tracks already.

All I said is that I wondered what a current F1 car would have looked like had those castrating changes (grooved tires, narrow body, tires, stepped bottom, etc.) not been implemented and Senna had not died.

Now, only post 2009, 2017 we are starting to bit by bit revert back all those slowing down measures.

[timbo]

I think I'm being extremely clear and friendly towards you. With wearing off I mean exactly what I said. Effects to slow the cars down started to wear off lately.

Thanks for conduct, maybe a came off as harsh, but that's what I sometimes am.
IMO "wear off" are somewhat weird words to describe what is happening, "revert" is what I understand clearer. To me "wear off" means overcoming effects of the changes of regulations by the natural progression of the car development. As as I said before F1 coped just fine, beating qualifying speeds from 1994 already in 2000 despite smaller engines, grooved tyres and narrower cars.

Yes you would have seen 7-8g cornering forces in 2000-2005 already, had Weickershof not been implemented post Senna's death. In fact mid way through 1993 there was talk of introducing G-suits for F1 drivers in the period 1995-1998 if development continued at the then current rate. The 1993 electronic cars with hydraulic and electronic brakes inc. ABS were braking at 6.5G on some tracks already.

What's the point of having cars that can't be driven to the limit for the whole race? G-suits would not be as effective in F1 as on planes, as the direction of forces are different. G-suit could have worked for braking, but braking events are short and blood just doesn't run out to the legs as fast (fortunately for drivers). Lateral G-forces are a bigger concern, and for lateral forces G-suites would not work. Combine those G-forces with temperature, vibrations, jolts from hitting bumps and curbs, and I think soon you would see physical damage to the drivers from simply driving the car on the limit.
Also, why do you think ABS helps peak acceleration? It's extremely hard to lock wheels on F1 cars at the start of the braking event where peak deceleration is happening due to all the DF car produces. I remember the record deceleration was posted by Frentzen at Imola at 1997.

All I said is that I wondered what a current F1 car would have looked like had those castrating changes (grooved tires, narrow body, tires, stepped bottom, etc.) not been implemented and Senna had not died.

Personally I don't much care how a car looks if it runs fast, there plenty of ugly cars pre-1994 and plenty of beautiful ones after. But that's me.
I do get the interest but you have to remember that at least 50 kilo and possibly more out of the weight limit we have now is due to the tub strengthening for safety which permits FIA to allow wider track and bigger tyres again.
Remember the current F1 drivers trying out cars from early 90s and 80s commenting how thin the tubs are. This is why we have "bloated" cars.
To me safety come first and I will argue with anybody complaining how current cars have "too much safety". I don't mean you personally, but this sentiment comes up from time to time.

[michl420]

A specialty in the Formula 1 for me was always the low vehicle weight. Many Sports cars today have 900 hp, but the weight in the Formula 1 makes the cars special. And I also believe that every team in 2017 could build a car with 700 kg without problems. And to say it again, weight distribution by rules is ridiculous.

[NtsParadize]

Can someone please explain why the 2017 regulations with the heavier and wider tyres and the wider car, necessitate an increase in weight to 728 kg from the 2016 value of 705 kg?

Looks like nobody answered that question from the OP, and instead chose focus on why modern F1 cars are heavy, with the usual safety argument (which is mostly wrong as FIA's dinosaurus materials and manufacture methods make the cars at least 50 kg heavier and the 2000's car were far from unsafe).

[AR3-GP]

This thread is ironic.

[maxxer]

Can someone please explain why the 2017 regulations with the heavier and wider tyres and the wider car, necessitate an increase in weight to 728 kg from the 2016 value of 705 kg?

Looks like nobody answered that question from the OP, and instead chose focus on why modern F1 cars are heavy, with the usual safety argument (which is mostly wrong as FIA's dinosaurus materials and manufacture methods make the cars at least 50 kg heavier and the 2000's car were far from unsafe).

Horrible accidents have still happened even on those silly tilke tracks

[johnny comelately]

This 1974 Ferrari shows how small they were (posted in the Ferrari thread as well)

[JordanMugen]

Can someone please explain why the 2017 regulations with the heavier and wider tyres and the wider car, necessitate an increase in weight to 728 kg from the 2016 value of 705 kg?

Looks like nobody answered that question from the OP, and instead chose focus on why modern F1 cars are heavy, with the usual safety argument (which is mostly wrong as FIA's dinosaurus materials and manufacture methods make the cars at least 50 kg heavier and the 2000's car were far from unsafe).

Easy:

+6kg for wider tyres (source: Pirelli).
+1-2kg for wider wheels.
+15 kg for miscellaneous larger bodywork, e.g., wider floor, larger rear wing, larger fuel tank (from 100kg to 105kg capacity).



Reference:
https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/formu ... 0/5023250/

the 2000's car were far from unsafe

Safety improves over time, removing safety features is almost never done (just think of the legal consequences). The current 140kg tubs are demonstrably safer and more robust than the 60kg tubs from 2002. They are more like an Indycar tub now.

You won't be pleased the rollhoop is being strengthened for 2023, following it breaking off in Zhou's rollover, which will likely further increase the tub weight despite the old rollover hoop being "far from unsafe"!

Maybe the stronger rollover hoop will add another 2-3kg or more?

[JordanMugen]

I also believe that every team in 2017 could build a car with 700 kg without problems.

Yet in 2022, most teams struggled to meet the 798kg minimum weight when following all the safety requirements (e.g., heavily reinforced monocoque) and materials requirements (e.g., aluminium uprights not carbon)?

Even so, teams still fitted heavy but unmandated features like bib springs where they believe the performance gain would offset the weight gain.

[OO7]

Can someone please explain why the 2017 regulations with the heavier and wider tyres and the wider car, necessitate an increase in weight to 728 kg from the 2016 value of 705 kg?

Looks like nobody answered that question from the OP, and instead chose focus on why modern F1 cars are heavy, with the usual safety argument (which is mostly wrong as FIA's dinosaurus materials and manufacture methods make the cars at least 50 kg heavier and the 2000's car were far from unsafe).

Easy:

+6kg for wider tyres (source: Pirelli).
+1-2kg for wider wheels.
+15 kg for miscellaneous larger bodywork, e.g., wider floor, larger rear wing, larger fuel tank (from 100kg to 105kg capacity).



Reference:
https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/formu ... 0/5023250/

the 2000's car were far from unsafe

Safety improves over time, removing safety features is almost never done (just think of the legal consequences). The current 140kg tubs are demonstrably safer and more robust than the 60kg tubs from 2002. They are more like an Indycar tub now.

You won't be pleased the rollhoop is being strengthened for 2023, following it breaking off in Zhou's rollover, which will likely further increase the tub weight despite the old rollover hoop being "far from unsafe"!

Maybe the stronger rollover hoop will add another 2-3kg or more?

Hi JordanMugen

Where does your information on the weight of 2002 tubs (60kg) and current tubs (140kg) come from?

[JordanMugen]

Looks like nobody answered that question from the OP, and instead chose focus on why modern F1 cars are heavy, with the usual safety argument (which is mostly wrong as FIA's dinosaurus materials and manufacture methods make the cars at least 50 kg heavier and the 2000's car were far from unsafe).

Easy:

+6kg for wider tyres (source: Pirelli).
+1-2kg for wider wheels.
+15 kg for miscellaneous larger bodywork, e.g., wider floor, larger rear wing, larger fuel tank (from 100kg to 105kg capacity).



Reference:
https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/formu ... 0/5023250/

the 2000's car were far from unsafe

Safety improves over time, removing safety features is almost never done (just think of the legal consequences). The current 140kg tubs are demonstrably safer and more robust than the 60kg tubs from 2002. They are more like an Indycar tub now.

You won't be pleased the rollhoop is being strengthened for 2023, following it breaking off in Zhou's rollover, which will likely further increase the tub weight despite the old rollover hoop being "far from unsafe"!

Maybe the stronger rollover hoop will add another 2-3kg or more?

Hi JordanMugen

Where does your information on the weight of 2002 tubs (60kg) and current tubs (140kg) come from?

From this forum, sorry I don't recall the exact links. 60kg (or even 70kg) was quoted for a mid-2000's era car somewhere, sorry I don't recall exactly where.

While the interim Caterham tub in 2015 was listed at 100kg according to an article about the unraced car in Racecar Engineering magazine. We know that in 2018, the halo (17kg) and halo mount (~3kg) added around 20kg, and that according to interviews for this season from technical directors, the safety increases and increase in minimum cockpit size for 2022 have added another 20kg to the tub, so that gives an estimated weight of around 140kg.

[From Racecar Engineering magazine] the monocoque weight [of the 2015 Caterham CT06] is 99.91kg plus

https://forums.autosport.com/topic/2113 ... breakdown/

Go back to 2008 a monocoque was ~55kg

EDIT: a quick google shows scarbs quoted 70kg back on 2006

For 2022:

There's a lot of new safety initiatives after the terrible accident in Spa a couple of years ago in F2, and the accident with [Romain] Grosjean, and one or two other things. So the weight limit, or the weight of the cars, increased.

https://au.motorsport.com/f1/news/2022- ... e/8873871/

There has been a lot of changes also for safety, so most teams I think we have found out are struggling with [meeting] this minimum [weight].

https://www.speedcafe.com/2022/03/18/mi ... 2-f1-cars/

[Another] big discussion point was making sure we could get the car under the weight limit, which has been fantastically challenging for all teams, I'm sure. The safety and crash tests are more challenging as well now, and you have to pass the test in order to homologate the car to test and race, but equally, in combination with wanting to package the car as tightly as possible and keep the thing at the minimum weight limit, it's a big challenge.

https://racingnews365.com/how-f1s-new-c ... -challenge

[OO7]

Easy:

+6kg for wider tyres (source: Pirelli).
+1-2kg for wider wheels.
+15 kg for miscellaneous larger bodywork, e.g., wider floor, larger rear wing, larger fuel tank (from 100kg to 105kg capacity).



Reference:
https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/formu ... 0/5023250/




Safety improves over time, removing safety features is almost never done (just think of the legal consequences). The current 140kg tubs are demonstrably safer and more robust than the 60kg tubs from 2002. They are more like an Indycar tub now.

You won't be pleased the rollhoop is being strengthened for 2023, following it breaking off in Zhou's rollover, which will likely further increase the tub weight despite the old rollover hoop being "far from unsafe"!

Maybe the stronger rollover hoop will add another 2-3kg or more?

Hi JordanMugen

Where does your information on the weight of 2002 tubs (60kg) and current tubs (140kg) come from?

From this forum, sorry I don't recall the exact links. 60kg (or even 70kg) was quoted for a mid-2000's era car somewhere, sorry I don't recall exactly where.

While the interim Caterham tub in 2015 was listed at 100kg according to an article about the unraced car in Racecar Engineering magazine. We know that in 2018, the halo (17kg) and halo mount (~3kg) added around 20kg, and that according to interviews for this season from technical directors, the safety increases and increase in minimum cockpit size for 2022 have added another 20kg to the tub, so that gives an estimated weight of around 140kg.

[From Racecar Engineering magazine] the monocoque weight [of the 2015 Caterham CT06] is 99.91kg plus

https://forums.autosport.com/topic/2113 ... breakdown/

Go back to 2008 a monocoque was ~55kg

EDIT: a quick google shows scarbs quoted 70kg back on 2006

For 2022:

There's a lot of new safety initiatives after the terrible accident in Spa a couple of years ago in F2, and the accident with [Romain] Grosjean, and one or two other things. So the weight limit, or the weight of the cars, increased.

https://au.motorsport.com/f1/news/2022- ... e/8873871/

There has been a lot of changes also for safety, so most teams I think we have found out are struggling with [meeting] this minimum [weight].

https://www.speedcafe.com/2022/03/18/mi ... 2-f1-cars/

[Another] big discussion point was making sure we could get the car under the weight limit, which has been fantastically challenging for all teams, I'm sure. The safety and crash tests are more challenging as well now, and you have to pass the test in order to homologate the car to test and race, but equally, in combination with wanting to package the car as tightly as possible and keep the thing at the minimum weight limit, it's a big challenge.

https://racingnews365.com/how-f1s-new-c ... -challenge

Thanks for the info JM

Comparing with the 2021 cars, the Ferrari F2003-GA carried roughly 80kg of ballast, so 70kg of that ballast would be required to bring the monocoque up to current standards. The 2021 cars had a minimum weight of 752Kg with little ballast, so it would surprise me if the difference between the two is on the order of 130kg!