Mercedes W13

[wesley123]

There's no direct correlation between between downforce level and tyre wear is there so I don't see what your point is?

There absolutely is.

Nope.

Considering the force that downforce applies, the increased cornering speeds etc. there definitely is a correlation.

And if you still want to "nope" it; Silverstone 2020.

[Just_a_fan]

The question isn't whether or not teams are running their floor edge near the ground. The question is stiffness. Mercedes is one of the first teams to adopt multiple floor stays.

They have the same number of stays as every other team.

The W13 has been one of the cars with the most flexible floor edge due to the highly cantilevered and exposed floor section. This is due to physics. Mercedes even experimented with running an additional floor stay in Canada to increase floor rigidity. It's something they will likely need to improve for next year.

You said they adopted multiple stays. They experimented but did not adopt additional stays. They have the same number of stays as other teams.

Their issues seem to have been solved by altering the edge of the floor to form devices similar to other teams - since going for the more complex floor edge, they have suffered almost no porpoising - or at least no worse than anyone else.

[AR3-GP]

They have the same number of stays as every other team.

The W13 has been one of the cars with the most flexible floor edge due to the highly cantilevered and exposed floor section. This is due to physics. Mercedes even experimented with running an additional floor stay in Canada to increase floor rigidity. It's something they will likely need to improve for next year.

You said they adopted multiple stays. They experimented but did not adopt additional stays. They have the same number of stays as other teams.

Their issues seem to have been solved by altering the edge of the floor to form devices similar to other teams - since going for the more complex floor edge, they have suffered almost no porpoising - or at least no worse than anyone else.

I was talking about the floor edge stiffness, not porpoising.

[Stu]

YET AGAIN, multiple pages of off-topicness (untopicallyness?) have been moved. This is the CAR TECHNICAL THREAD, not flexing plank (TD-039-2022-Spa); raised floor edge (2023-car speculation); wet-weather set-up/rain-dancing (Hungary 2022/Team thread)


Around three/four pages of off-topic ----posting have been moved, any further off-topicness will simply be deleted.

POST IN THE CORRECT THREADS!!!

[Just_a_fan]

The W13 has been one of the cars with the most flexible floor edge due to the highly cantilevered and exposed floor section. This is due to physics. Mercedes even experimented with running an additional floor stay in Canada to increase floor rigidity. It's something they will likely need to improve for next year.

You said they adopted multiple stays. They experimented but did not adopt additional stays. They have the same number of stays as other teams.

Their issues seem to have been solved by altering the edge of the floor to form devices similar to other teams - since going for the more complex floor edge, they have suffered almost no porpoising - or at least no worse than anyone else.

I was talking about the floor edge stiffness, not porpoising.

And the W13 still doesn't run more stays than other cars.

[atanatizante]

I actually still think this sidepod design has the legs to be the superior concept. FER evaluated it but it’s extremely tricky to do. Lots of unsupported real estate/tricky flow structures. I think in the main, the Merc is actually struggling under the floor/tunnel flow. Whether that’s because of suspension (it looks extremely stiff) or actual tunnel design. Likely so it can run close to the surface which gives this design max DF that’s seen in the windtunnel/CFD? I don’t think the sidepods are the reason they’re so far off the pace. They simply don’t have THAT much effect on the total package!

Actually, I rewatched France FP1 with Nick DeVries was on board replacing HAM and was just amazed how much rear suspension travel the W13 has when riding the turn 2 kerbs ... could this be the underside chassis /nonvisible update they brought for France and responsible for the results both there and in Hungary?

Then, what wonders me is the fact that they now seem to be the only team on the grid that has a rear wing sporting a flat main profile, everybody else following RB18 and F1-75 curved main plain profile tailored by their aero profile and maybe someone with more knowledge could enlight me ...

[Cs98]

I actually still think this sidepod design has the legs to be the superior concept. FER evaluated it but it’s extremely tricky to do. Lots of unsupported real estate/tricky flow structures. I think in the main, the Merc is actually struggling under the floor/tunnel flow. Whether that’s because of suspension (it looks extremely stiff) or actual tunnel design. Likely so it can run close to the surface which gives this design max DF that’s seen in the windtunnel/CFD? I don’t think the sidepods are the reason they’re so far off the pace. They simply don’t have THAT much effect on the total package!

Actually, I rewatched France FP1 with Nick DeVries was on board replacing HAM and was just amazed how much rear suspension travel the W13 has when riding the turn 2 kerbs ... could this be the underside chassis /nonvisible update they brought for France and responsible for the results both there and in Hungary?

Then, what wonders me is the fact that they now seem to be the only team on the grid that has a rear wing sporting a flat main profile, everybody else following RB18 and F1-75 curved main plain profile tailored by their aero profile and maybe someone with more knowledge could enlight me ...

The flat main profile is their low downforce option. Considering they have drag/power issues, they have to sacrifice some downforce to maintain competitiveness on the straights on most tracks. If you look at their high downforce option, used in Hungary, that’s actually a double scooped main section, as opposed to the single scoop of most other teams. But they have resorted to the low downforce option even on some medium-high downforce tracks, such as Austria. And even then we saw in the sprint how hard it was for Lewis to pass Mick.

If you look at the low downforce options of RB and Ferrari, their mainplane also trends toward a much flatter profile. The mainplane is the most crucial part of the rear wing for minimizing drag, and having a flat one also synergizes well with DRS.

[AR3-GP]

I actually still think this sidepod design has the legs to be the superior concept. FER evaluated it but it’s extremely tricky to do. Lots of unsupported real estate/tricky flow structures. I think in the main, the Merc is actually struggling under the floor/tunnel flow. Whether that’s because of suspension (it looks extremely stiff) or actual tunnel design. Likely so it can run close to the surface which gives this design max DF that’s seen in the windtunnel/CFD? I don’t think the sidepods are the reason they’re so far off the pace. They simply don’t have THAT much effect on the total package!

Actually, I rewatched France FP1 with Nick DeVries was on board replacing HAM and was just amazed how much rear suspension travel the W13 has when riding the turn 2 kerbs ... could this be the underside chassis /nonvisible update they brought for France and responsible for the results both there and in Hungary?

Then, what wonders me is the fact that they now seem to be the only team on the grid that has a rear wing sporting a flat main profile, everybody else following RB18 and F1-75 curved main plain profile tailored by their aero profile and maybe someone with more knowledge could enlight me ...

The W12 was caught out last year with a lack of suspension range. Perhaps the W13 rear suspension was designed to allow for any and all possible rear ride heights for this new rules cycle since they supply to customers and wanted to have a big operating window since they don't know what the best concepts will be.

[vorticism]

[atanatizante]

How about W13`s ride height vs RB18`s seeing in this picture from Hungary?

[Cs98]

How about W13`s ride height vs RB18`s seeing in this picture from Hungary?

https://postimages.org/

The RB18 has never struck me as one of the "low riders" during this season. Which doesn't mesh with the whole narrative around the plank.

[PlatinumZealot]

How about W13`s ride height vs RB18`s seeing in this picture from Hungary?

https://postimages.org/

The cars are in two different positions on track. Inconclusive.

[chrisc90]

How about W13`s ride height vs RB18`s seeing in this picture from Hungary?

https://postimages.org/

The cars are in two different positions on track. Inconclusive.

They arent exactly millions of miles away are they? Lucky to be a car length between them at best.

The Merc does look a fraction lower than the RB, but it could be down to how the photo is taken, especially given the wings look like small vs large too.

[PlatinumZealot]

How about W13`s ride height vs RB18`s seeing in this picture from Hungary?

https://postimages.org/

The cars are in two different positions on track. Inconclusive.

They arent exactly millions of miles away are they? Lucky to be a car length between them at best.

The Merc does look a fraction lower than the RB, but it could be down to how the photo is taken, especially given the wings look like small vs large too.

One guy could be stepping on the throttle or braking, so the attitude of the car dives or squats etc even for a fraction of second before the following car.

[chrisc90]

The cars are in two different positions on track. Inconclusive.

They arent exactly millions of miles away are they? Lucky to be a car length between them at best.

The Merc does look a fraction lower than the RB, but it could be down to how the photo is taken, especially given the wings look like small vs large too.

One guy could be stepping on the throttle or braking, so the attitude of the car dives or squats etc even for a fraction of second before the following car.

Of course. From watching Russell's onboard pole lap, I believe the photo was took between turns 2 and 3 (roughly 25-26seconds in the Official F1 Youtube onboard for pole position. Video below.



I also think it would be reasonably fair to conclude that both drivers would be on full throttle from 2-3 car lengths after turn 2, meaning it is plausible to compare. Granted the angle of the photo being down hill with one car ahead of the other will skew the angles.

For a true comparison, we would need the cars in a near identical spot, such as on the straight/finish line or where there is straight where both cars have been on full throttle for a period of time before the photo being took. Or there is a better comparison pic of the cars as they followed through the corner (if a photographer took a series of photos of the 2 cars going through and could grab the shot in the same place - a video might be better suited to that though and check frame by frame.) Even then we are guessing as unable measure the plank distance to the tarmac - as we could be talking a few mm's which would be neigh on impossible for a human to determine.

I think I said in one of the aero threads, or the TD039 one, maybe the 2023 one with the new higher floor edges, it would be better to compare the floor edge of each as a car goes through a high speed corner or other straight section its possible to compare.

However, given the above, i'd still say the Mercedes looks marginally lower than the Red bull in the above photo - but that could be down to track angle, amount of light shown under the car etc.