2022 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

[uchihaigor1701]

A layman's question. Why doesn't Mercedes heat the tires at all and why does the car have so much drag? Could someone give me a technical explanation?

[Rikhart]

A layman's question. Why doesn't Mercedes heat the tires at all and why does the car have so much drag? Could someone give me a technical explanation?

Not sure even the team themselves know that, let alone people on forums...

[mkay]

A layman's question. Why doesn't Mercedes heat the tires at all and why does the car have so much drag? Could someone give me a technical explanation?

Not sure even the team themselves know that, let alone people on forums...

A poster on this forum ran his own CFD analysis during preseason and concluded that Merc’s sidepods are likely draggier than Ferrari’s.

[ringo]

For the tyres, it could be suspension geometry and setup. They setup the car for less tyre wear to have a better average speed over the race distance.
I think this simply is a bandaid for poor ultimate pace. For example if they are 0.5 seconds a lap slower than the redbull, but gain 0.1 second per lap as the tyres degrade and the car gets slower. And if the redbull gains 0.2 seconds per lap from tyre deg... Then at some point, after a number of laps, there will be a cross over point where the mercedes is the faster car simply because it has preserved lap time better.
Say in this case after 7 laps, the mercedes should be in touching distance.

So they have a setup that wears the tyres less, but that setup also would mean less energy goes into the tyres during cornering, so qualifying suffers. That's my take on it; very simple take.

I cannot answer the drag question though. I am awaiting the team's explanation after the season is over.

[PlatinumZealot]

If the narrow bodywork is an issue, someone knowledgeable pointed out the fact that they made a lot of compromises with the PU to accommodate that design choice.

Could be a double blow.

RBR built an absolutely dominant car. And they were unaffected by the TD this year, it seems. So fair play to them.

Yes, they did a lot of compromise for that bodywork.
There may be room for development in other areas if the design is changed. I do think however, that next year's car may be something in between this design and the sloped down pod design.
Haas has barely improved with the Ferrari pods, but Alpine is doing very well, and is in fact faster than Mercedes.
I really do not see why Alonso is leaving.

It would be interesting to hear the engineer's feedback on this car. The biggest weakness I see, may be weight, and suspension. The front end characteristically has no grip. And when it does get a little the back end snaps at high speed.
The aero balance is very peaky and delicate.
W14 need to be fully sorted out if they want Lewis or George to be WDC next year.

Anyhow let us see what the car is like over a race distance. Temperatures were low and it may have explained the understeer in the car. They may run better over the distance.

Thinnest setup window of the hybrid era for Merc.

The PU design is now baked until ‘26. So whatever performance they may have given up to go with verti-pods is probably lost, sadly.

And while I fully agree with the team that the bodywork in and of itself is not the sole culprit, the choice there has impacted the floor and the diffuser. And now you have to run the suspension a certain way to make those areas work. It’s just cumulative.

The floor continues to look (I know, eyeball CFD) so underdeveloped compared to Ferrari and RBR. Even Hamilton publicly alluded to this fact today.

Alpine is definitely a nuisance in qualifying trim - like McLaren - but they’re typically no match for the Mercs in race trim.

This qualifying pace has to improve. You need a great race car to win, yes, but qualifying position is still integral to this generation of F1.

The exhaust pipes may be free still....??

[PlatinumZealot]

A layman's question. Why doesn't Mercedes heat the tires at all and why does the car have so much drag? Could someone give me a technical explanation?

The scrub radius is probably smaller. Scrub radius is the distance of the contact patch to the axis that the tyre turns about when it is steered. More scrub radius means the contact patch slides more and heats up faster. Downside is more tyre wear.

The other thing is the areo balance. It affects the downforce when the car is making quick movments like braking accelersting turning, and obviously the tyres will behave differently for different motions.

[uchihaigor1701]

I think this tire characteristics come from w10. Now the air of the car is absurd. I would like to see this car with sidepods but they say it won't make them fast. I want to see how it goes next year

[ringo]

I think this tire characteristics come from w10. Now the air of the car is absurd. I would like to see this car with sidepods but they say it won't make them fast. I want to see how it goes next year

Yes. Even in 2013 the W04 was it? was very good in qualifying, but was disasterous during the race. They had fric suspension then, and even with that hydraulically linked suspension the car was too biased to qualifying, where it heated the tyres quickly and had poor deg in the race.
This DNA stayed with the subsequent cars, but the monstrous engine hid their bad characteristics.
In 2017 or 2018? there were efforts to sort out the sensitivity of the setup, but I don't think there was ever a year this team ever got suspension right.
DAS steering system that adjusted the toe angle of the front wheels was the bandaid that helped the team have their cake and eat it with a qualy biased setup that would wear the front tyres more, but an adjusted toe that gives better straight line speed but protects the fronts on the straights. Correct me if I am wrong on the concept anyone.

[uchihaigor1701]

As a fan, I get frustrated with the performance of the team that has always surpassed until now, they don't understand the car I made. I believe it will take many years to fill the gap. The engine is not the same watershed. I already see a very dominant car in the RBR if F1 didn't intervene and leaves the competitive category it will be 5 in a row for Max.

[organic]

I think this tire characteristics come from w10. Now the air of the car is absurd. I would like to see this car with sidepods but they say it won't make them fast. I want to see how it goes next year

Yes. Even in 2013 the W04 was it? was very good in qualifying, but was disasterous during the race. They had fric suspension then, and even with that hydraulically linked suspension the car was too biased to qualifying, where it heated the tyres quickly and had poor deg in the race.
This DNA stayed with the subsequent cars, but the monstrous engine hid their bad characteristics.
In 2017 or 2018? there were efforts to sort out the sensitivity of the setup, but I don't think there was ever a year this team ever got suspension right.
DAS steering system that adjusted the toe angle of the front wheels was the bandaid that helped the team have their cake and eat it with a qualy biased setup that would wear the front tyres more, but an adjusted toe that gives better straight line speed but protects the fronts on the straights. Correct me if I am wrong on the concept anyone.

They only used DAS to generate heat in the tyres. Even if developed to go down what you're suggesting, the drivers found it too difficult/awkward to use it in anything other than tyre warmup.

Its use by Merc allowed them to run setups that heavily protect the front tyre, but could always generate enough front tyre temp for quali as well (using DAS during outlaps). Rather than running quali optimized strategies that das then coaxes through the race, it's more race oriented setups that DAS helps with getting tyres fired up.

[101FlyingDutchman]

All of you saying they want the sidepod change…. It’s quite clear that their struggles will not be solved just by sidepod. Remember the winter testing: underneath the pods it’s the same layout as during testing. They can mount those without issues.
Clearly something is amiss around the floor and the interplay with the suspension. That’s where the Merc just doesn’t want to play. Sidepods may well be a tiny bit draggier but it will not help propel the team forward. Come on, they’d have done it by now. Some of the best engineering brains on the planet!

Shame to see them in the woods. I really wonder if the CFD comps/wind tunnel has lead them to figures that just cannot be replicated in the real world…

[Jdn1327]

All of you saying they want the sidepod change…. It’s quite clear that their struggles will not be solved just by sidepod. Remember the winter testing: underneath the pods it’s the same layout as during testing. They can mount those without issues.
Clearly something is amiss around the floor and the interplay with the suspension. That’s where the Merc just doesn’t want to play. Sidepods may well be a tiny bit draggier but it will not help propel the team forward. Come on, they’d have done it by now. Some of the best engineering brains on the planet!

Shame to see them in the woods. I really wonder if the CFD comps/wind tunnel has lead them to figures that just cannot be replicated in the real world…

I think we're all just very desperate for them to try something different...week in and week out it's the same story with Mercedes...too much pride to admit a poor concept. The Red Bull is like silk over the Kerbs. They were fighting for a championship last year as well so Mercedes cannot use that excuse...they've lost over 6 months of development trying to flog the dead horse concept...

[101FlyingDutchman]

All of you saying they want the sidepod change…. It’s quite clear that their struggles will not be solved just by sidepod. Remember the winter testing: underneath the pods it’s the same layout as during testing. They can mount those without issues.
Clearly something is amiss around the floor and the interplay with the suspension. That’s where the Merc just doesn’t want to play. Sidepods may well be a tiny bit draggier but it will not help propel the team forward. Come on, they’d have done it by now. Some of the best engineering brains on the planet!

Shame to see them in the woods. I really wonder if the CFD comps/wind tunnel has lead them to figures that just cannot be replicated in the real world…

I think we're all just very desperate for them to try something different...week in and week out it's the same story with Mercedes...too much pride to admit a poor concept. The Red Bull is like silk over the Kerbs. They were fighting for a championship last year as well so Mercedes cannot use that excuse...they've lost over 6 months of development trying to flog the dead horse concept...

Totally. I’d like to see the Merc back up there too. It’s shown some signs of promise but typically it’s been in slower speed/shorter radius type corners. The fact it loses 0.5s on the RB18 just in S1 (only 1 corner) just shows how the traction is absolutely nullified by how compromised the rear suspension is to aid the underbody tunnel flow. (My view of what I see happening)

[mstar]

Did lewis and George run different Downforce levels? i take it both using the new upgrades?

[mstar]

Shame to see them in the woods. I really wonder if the CFD comps/wind tunnel has lead them to figures that just cannot be replicated in the real world…

IMO i think merc have fallen behing in the tooling in CFD/simulation tools etc compared to RB/Ferrari. While merc was winning with big advantages, the other teams maybe invested in these tools and got a bit ahead of the game. As its clear the % correlation of RB and Ferrari parts seems to be HIGH when they put them on the car. Mercs upgrades seem more hit and miss. Maybe its the inconsistency of the car on track but parts are good OR the parts just don't correlate well from factory to track.