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And in the HAM incident with ALO don`t you think it was the same case as in the 2021 Copse accident between VER and HAM?
I think it is similar too. Back then I thought that Verstappen should have given Hamilton more room. Same here, I think Hamilton should have given Alonso more room.
Not similar. Just look at the grey stuf Alonso had left on the right side (none) and the grey stuff Lewis had left on the right side (plenty)..
The new TD... on Sky Toto said before the race "we need to stop the FIA from making changes that benefit one team like this with RB." To be honest - i was speechless. It was him and Mercedes who almost forced the FIA to introduce this new TD. Even in F1 i never saw hypocrisy like that before. But anyway - if the new TD hurt any of the Topteams, its Mercedes and Ferrari(but only the next race will show that). I have heard that Mercedes and Ferrari cannot use the set-ups they have used before, while Red Bull, less affected by porpoising, can still use the set-ups they were used to. This gives them a massive advantage and much more time to optimise qualifying and race performance. Usually Ferrari, because of its phenomenal traction, should have been much faster than the RB in the second sector at Spa. But they were much slower there than the RB. So this rumour sounds reasonable, as it also says that Ferrari has to run a much stiffer rear suspension now. And Mercedes, who had already had to run an extremely stiff suspension before, have an even smaller operational window now than before. But i think the next race will show if the new TD really hurts anyone, or if RBs domination was just related to the track, low temperatures(which always hurt Ferrari) and an extraordinary performance by the drivers and engineers. Qualifying suggests that, as Ferrari was more than one second faster than Mercedes and everyone else. And thats more or less the same than what we had before the introduction of the new TD. So from that point of view, nothing has changed - only that RB was much faster. Of course this also makes it possible that the new TD hurts everyone the same, just not Red Bull. But i do not really think this is possible. But i think Zandvort will clarify it.
Im surprised you were surprised to be honest. This is the level you expect from Toto.
The new TD... on Sky Toto said before the race "we need to stop the FIA from making changes that benefit one team like this with RB." To be honest - i was speechless. It was him and Mercedes who almost forced the FIA to introduce this new TD. Even in F1 i never saw hypocrisy like that before. But anyway - if the new TD hurt any of the Topteams, its Mercedes and Ferrari(but only the next race will show that).
Holy s***. I missed that part. He riled everyone to believe Red Bull and Ferrari are pushing the limits (read cheating) and many gullible Mercedes fans and the whole of Sky team (they are anyway idiots) believed it and had high hopes of an equal footing. Now flipping like that is unheard of.
It seems more believable now that Mercedes only knows how to put inefficient downforce. Their saviour was the that ultra powerful engine that they had till 2020. Now that it's 3rd or 4th best PU on the grid, their car is struggling. They are losing people from both engine and chassis side. They cannot afford to hire anymore because of budget cap. The engine is frozen now. It's a vicious situation now. They need a new leadership to guide them out.
Last edited by mendis on 29 Aug 2022, 16:50, edited 2 times in total.
I fear the team may be headed for a similar trajectory to post-MSC Ferrari. 2006 was the last Brawn/Byrne/Todt year. 2007 and 2008 had new design team/structure (Aldo Costa/Tombazis/Resta, etc.) but similar regs, so the cars were still good. Like the 1997 Williams (although Newey was more or less still responsible) still being good after 1996. When the regs changed in 2009, Ferrari's new design team flubbed it and you could argue to this day they haven't recovered (2022 is a marked improvement, but still). The team finished 4th in WCC but would have been third if Massa didn't get injured (they were only 1 pt behind McLaren). Same goes for Williams 1998 with the narrow cars; still got a few podiums and third in WCC but no wins.
Since the W10 in 2019, Aldo Costa is no longer involved (AFAIK), Elliot has become TD instead of Allison, and Andy Cowell has left. Not all of these happened at once but still; the W12 had such a high baseline in the W11 that any shortcomings in the design team/structure may have been masked. New regs for 2022, and what does the team have? A car that can't win on outright pace but can score some podiums, and is third in the WCC. I know that Mercedes has a history of defying precedent, but certainly you would say it doesn't look good for them in the short to medium term.
"You can't argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience"
- Mark Twain
I fear the team may be headed for a similar trajectory to post-MSC Ferrari. 2006 was the last Brawn/Byrne/Todt year. 2007 and 2008 had new design team/structure (Aldo Costa/Tombazis/Resta, etc.) but similar regs, so the cars were still good. Like the 1997 Williams (although Newey was more or less still responsible) still being good after 1996. When the regs changed in 2009, Ferrari's new design team flubbed it and you could argue to this day they haven't recovered (2022 is a marked improvement, but still). The team finished 4th in WCC but would have been third if Massa didn't get injured (they were only 1 pt behind McLaren). Same goes for Williams 1998 with the narrow cars; still got a few podiums and third in WCC but no wins.
Since the W10 in 2019, Aldo Costa is no longer involved (AFAIK), Elliot has become TD instead of Allison, and Andy Cowell has left. Not all of these happened at once but still; the W12 had such a high baseline in the W11 that any shortcomings in the design team/structure may have been masked. New regs for 2022, and what does the team have? A car that can't win on outright pace but can score some podiums, and is third in the WCC. I know that Mercedes has a history of defying precedent, but certainly you would say it doesn't look good for them in the short to medium term.
I think what Niki did was more than met the eye. Someone was keeping the team on course, and it does seem to be wavering now. Some times a straight talker can make a pathway clear when you can not talk it to death
When arguing with a fool, be sure the other person is not doing the same thing.
I fear the team may be headed for a similar trajectory to post-MSC Ferrari. 2006 was the last Brawn/Byrne/Todt year. 2007 and 2008 had new design team/structure (Aldo Costa/Tombazis/Resta, etc.) but similar regs, so the cars were still good. Like the 1997 Williams (although Newey was more or less still responsible) still being good after 1996. When the regs changed in 2009, Ferrari's new design team flubbed it and you could argue to this day they haven't recovered (2022 is a marked improvement, but still). The team finished 4th in WCC but would have been third if Massa didn't get injured (they were only 1 pt behind McLaren). Same goes for Williams 1998 with the narrow cars; still got a few podiums and third in WCC but no wins.
Since the W10 in 2019, Aldo Costa is no longer involved (AFAIK), Elliot has become TD instead of Allison, and Andy Cowell has left. Not all of these happened at once but still; the W12 had such a high baseline in the W11 that any shortcomings in the design team/structure may have been masked. New regs for 2022, and what does the team have? A car that can't win on outright pace but can score some podiums, and is third in the WCC. I know that Mercedes has a history of defying precedent, but certainly you would say it doesn't look good for them in the short to medium term.
I think what Niki did was more than met the eye. Someone was keeping the team on course, and it does seem to be wavering now. Some times a straight talker can make a pathway clear when you can not talk it to death
True; I completely forgot about Lauda. I think he and Wolff used to bounce ideas off each other, but now Toto just does what he sees fit without consulting anyone (especially now, considering a certain S.A. Rao now of the FIA is occupied).
"You can't argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience"
- Mark Twain
I believe he said it as a joke. Just the way I see it.
You’d hope so. I mean if you campaigned so hard for a mid season, and 2023 rule change by coming out with its dangerous for the drivers, something needs to be done about it, then tell your drivers to call out the 2 teams ahead of you for cheating…
And it’s all backfired…. Never looks good does it.
It’s standard though isn’t it. Remember Horner’s campaigning for the ban on engine modes. Engine mode changes were bad for F1, bad for racing, Merc had the best party mode, no one else could compete etc etc. FIA bans engine mode changes and the racing is actually worse, especially at low downforce venues like Monza, Merc seems to be pretty much unaffected, field spread is just the same. Nothing more is said on the topic.
It’s just a way to destabilise the opposition and is far from being unique to Merc.
I’d go as far to say if the guys behind aren’t rattling the leading teams cage regularly they aren’t doing their jobs properly…
It’s standard though isn’t it. Remember Horner’s campaigning for the ban on engine modes. Engine mode changes were bad for F1, bad for racing, Merc had the best party mode, no one else could compete etc etc.
That team principal is no saint, but I think what is often forgotten here is that one team was targeted with engine mode bans when the FIA rewrote the regulations with standard ECUs and mappings in 2011/2012 to prevent a certain team from utilizing their specialized engine maps for off throttle blowing developed in partnership with their engine supplier.
So it's no surprise that this team principal cheered as the FIA banned party modes.
I think this DT was just for porposing to come back. Alpine, Williams and Ferrari to McLaren. This shows the failure of this regulation and the FIA will have to intervene. Even Ferrari lifting the car had .
I believe he said it as a joke. Just the way I see it.
You’d hope so. I mean if you campaigned so hard for a mid season, and 2023 rule change by coming out with its dangerous for the drivers, something needs to be done about it, then tell your drivers to call out the 2 teams ahead of you for cheating…
And it’s all backfired…. Never looks good does it.
I see him taking it on the chin with humour, he literally cracked a wry smile and so did Di resta.
For context, the video is plastered with "Wolff moaning".
Your comments are totally devoid of any reality. Most teams were porpoising, you act like it was only Mercedes.
Were they vocal? Sure.
But saying this was Mercedes driven is so biased it's simply laughable.
Like Mercedes are responsible for other teams porpoising or other drivers complaining.
I think he and Wolff used to bounce ideas off each other, but now Toto just does what he sees fit without consulting anyone (especially now, considering a certain S.A. Rao now of the FIA is occupied).
