Ferrari F1-75

[Andi76]

I was thinking a lot about this post and the latest information i got about Ferraris sudden performance loss. Should i share it or better do not say anything at all, as its a very delicate piece of information but also one that lacks deeper technical details. But as i really think it is very important and comes from reliable sources, i decided to share it.

If this information is true, what i honestly believe because of its origin, Ferraris 2022 season is literally lost as is its 2023 campaign, because Red Bull will have a massive developement advantage whereas Ferrari has literally to start from scratch.

I was told that TD39 did not only hurt Ferrari, but completely destroyed its aero-philosopy. I was told that the technical change has turned Ferraris brilliant sidepod design into a completely obsolete one. Unfortunately, as often in F1, it was not possible to get more detailed information. I want to underline again- this is no information thats "confirmed", but its from reliable sources. And it sounds very reasonable, especially after taking a closer look at Ferraris performances, car behaviour etc. and also the design of the F1-75.

I think its obvious since Zandvort that Ferrari got hurt massively by TD39. After analysing the laptimes of the last two races, i noticed that it does not matter which tyre Ferrari is using- after 10 or 11 there is a massive loss of performance. I assume contact frequencies are a problem in that regard, hardening and stiffening the compound. I also watched many many laps of onboard footage of Red Bull, Mercedes and Ferrari and i noticed that Ferrari is suddenly porpoising a lot. At Zandvort it was at three areas of the track, while the RB still has no or only a very gentle form of porpoising. The Mercedes has some porpoising, but very minior compared to the Ferrari. Also the Ferrari suddenly is sliding more and lost its traction advantage in slow corners. This could be down to a loss of downforce and aerodynamic load. The drivers are also complaining about the balance, something that used to be one of the strongpoints of the F1-75. The reason could also be a change/loss of aerodynamic load with its root in TD39.

The Venturi Tunnel-"Philosophy" of Ferrari probably is one of reasons. The Ferrari tunnels are very low, making maximum use of ground effect, but probably more dependant on low ride heights. Red Bulls tunnel roofs are higher and because of that probably designed to work with more ground clearance. I noticed that Red Bull uses a lot of vortices(new strakes create even more vortices now). So essentially Ferraris floor is totally dependant on the ground effect, while Red Bull relies more on vortices to improve the tunnels performance. Mercedes basically copied Red Bull "high-tunnel-roofs", what probably made them also less dependant on low ride heights and they can now can follow the same philosophy. Because of that, TD39 did not reall hurt Mercedes and Red Bull is not hurt at all because they are ahead of Mercedes in terms of their venturi-tunnel developement.

Ferraris aero-philosophy, basically is a "low-floor", designed to make maximum use of the ground effect additionaly driven in a way by the rear-beamwing assembly to produce superior downforce. To do this and maximise the downforce, Ferraris sidepod and engine cover was designed in a way to make the rear and beamwing work much better than the ones on other cars. The rear/beamwing assembly is the device with the strongest upwash, this "drives" the floor much better than leading air over the top of the diffuser. The bathtub sidepods equalled the additional drag that this philosophy probably induced. A brilliant and probably superior concept because the floor produced more downforce than other concepts without any drag penalty because of the sidepod design. But highly dependant on low ride heights because of the low tunnel roof that only works in close proximaty to the ground. With TD39 now in place Ferrari cannot use low ride heights and the drag-ratio of the rear/beamwing assembly probably has changed, too, with the "bathtub-effect" not giving an advantage anymore. So Ferraris aero-philosophy and sidepod design is completely corrupted.

I may be wrong, but thats how i think TD39 has "made a brilliant design obsolete"(thats exactly what i was told). To make things even worse, the disadvantages from being on the backfoot now in terms of tunnel-design and developement, will make a successfull 2023 highly unlikely. And, if this is information is true, it will diminish Red Bulls performance and everything they achieve, as it was down to an unecessary rule change, initiated by another team to do exactly that - weaken the opposition. Only that Red Bull had the luck to have chosen an aero-philosophy that did not get hurt. What makes the 2022(and probably even the 2023 WCC)WCC a championship decided by random and luck, not by technical abilities, knowledge, driver-talent and developement. What would really be a shame.

Finally i want to say again that my theory about how the Aero-Philosophy/Concept of the F1-75 was corrupted my be wrong completely or wrong partwise. So please correct me if i am wrong and maybe there is someone with more knowledge about Venturi-Tunnels who has a better explaination.

[SirBastianVettel]

I was told that TD39 did not only hurt Ferrari, but completely destroyed its aero-philosopy. I was told that the technical change has turned Ferraris brilliant sidepod design into a completely obsolete one.

I don't have the technical knowledge of some of the people around here, but a car that probably had the best one-lap pace in Zandvoort doesn't seem obsolete to me.

[zioture]

Comparison PRE TD39, SPA and Zandvoort

[Vanja #66]

I was thinking a lot about this post and the latest information i got about Ferraris sudden performance loss. Should i share it or better do not say anything at all, as its a very delicate piece of information but also one that lacks deeper technical details. But as i really think it is very important and comes from reliable sources, i decided to share it.

Thank you for sharing this Andi, it makes a lot of sense.

I would only like to point out one thing. Having Newey, who had the time to play with Aston Martin Valkyrie and unsealed (i.e. open, without skirts) ground effect floor, who perfected this, was a distinct advantage for Red Bull. They have perfected a floor design that relies on diffuser performance, rather than floor. This is obviously lower peak-downforce level, but a stable one, less prone to bouncing, able to utilize rake and with high rear-ride-height it can ensure excellent low-speed-corner-exit traction.

This is not the first time mid-season rule change hurt Ferrari, it has happened for more than 10 years now... Massive hit was change to tyre compounds in 2013 which was a massive favour to Red Bull (who couldn't get their head around first compounds), massive hit with engine power in 2019 and now this... Obviously, things are highly political and as a non-british team Ferrari is not welcome as F1 Champion.

It's also highly likely season 2023 will see RB dominance and it's hard not to see this continue in 24 and 25... I was hoping this might change eventually, but it's obvious they won't. F1 died as a sport a while ago, not it's only a show business.

[TimW]

......
Finally i want to say again that my theory about how the Aero-Philosophy/Concept of the F1-75 was corrupted my be wrong completely or wrong partwise. So please correct me if i am wrong and maybe there is someone with more knowledge about Venturi-Tunnels who has a better explaination.

I think this is more about the 15mm raising the floor edge for next year than TD39. I am no aero expert, but with the higher edges there will be more leakage, more air passing under the car and thus more air to be evacuated by the diffuser. This will place more importance on the flow over the floor to the diffuser to improve diffuser efficiency. The micropod and (to a lesser extend) the RB pods do maximize the flow over the floor to the diffuser. The Ferrari design seems more about managing the flow around the rear wheels, with reduced emphasis on the flow to the diffuser.

Please shoot holes in the above and correct me if my understanding is wrong. I'd love to know if there is any sense in it.

[F1Krof]

Credit:

[codetower]

I was thinking a lot about this post and the latest information i got about Ferraris sudden performance loss. Should i share it or better do not say anything at all, as its a very delicate piece of information but also one that lacks deeper technical details. But as i really think it is very important and comes from reliable sources, i decided to share it.

Thank you for sharing this Andi, it makes a lot of sense.

I would only like to point out one thing. Having Newey, who had the time to play with Aston Martin Valkyrie and unsealed (i.e. open, without skirts) ground effect floor, who perfected this, was a distinct advantage for Red Bull. They have perfected a floor design that relies on diffuser performance, rather than floor. This is obviously lower peak-downforce level, but a stable one, less prone to bouncing, able to utilize rake and with high rear-ride-height it can ensure excellent low-speed-corner-exit traction.

This is not the first time mid-season rule change hurt Ferrari, it has happened for more than 10 years now... Massive hit was change to tyre compounds in 2013 which was a massive favour to Red Bull (who couldn't get their head around first compounds), massive hit with engine power in 2019 and now this... Obviously, things are highly political and as a non-british team Ferrari is not welcome as F1 Champion.

It's also highly likely season 2023 will see RB dominance and it's hard not to see this continue in 24 and 25... I was hoping this might change eventually, but it's obvious they won't. F1 died as a sport a while ago, not it's only a show business.

Good points, Vanja. But don't you think Ferrari can still make the concept work? Engine is frozen, but they've made some good progress there; It has good power and reliability will still be improved. And as the teams have said it's easier to find reliability, than performance. I'm still hopeful that they will continue to improve. They can work on the floor, tweak the aero, work on the suspension to help with tyre deg, and continue to make progress. They are close.

One comment/question regarding the "non-british" part. Red Bull itself isn't British either (Austrian if I'm not mistaken), and neither is Honda. Wouldn't they be looking for ways to bring Aston and McLaren up to the top?

[paulo_f1]

Some weird comments here, they seem to be trying to fit circumstances to some underlaying narrative, some bordering on conspiracy theories!

1. The Ferrari has porpoised all season long, the Red Bull has not. TD39 hasn't changed either cars behaviour here. Mercedes largely got on top of bouncing and porpoising after changes made at the Spanish GP.

2. Ferrari has been falling behind pace wise as the year has gone on. Hungary, like Monaco a circuit that should have suited their cars traits did not, they had OK one lap pace, but rubbish race pace and degradation. This race was prior to TD39.

3. If this was all about showbiz, why would the FIA/F1 Group write the TD39 rules to spoil the show? A Red Bull v Ferrari battle is much more showbiz than one team dominating. As per 2021, an exciting battle to the end of the year is the what the owners and FIA want.

Unfortunately, this was probably Ferraris best chance of a title, Red Bull are far more on top of performance development and race strategy.

[Drift4794]

Welp, that was a depressing read Andi...
For the sake of 2023, I hope you're wrong.

[Zynerji]

I was thinking a lot about this post and the latest information i got about Ferraris sudden performance loss. Should i share it or better do not say anything at all, as its a very delicate piece of information but also one that lacks deeper technical details. But as i really think it is very important and comes from reliable sources, i decided to share it.

Thank you for sharing this Andi, it makes a lot of sense.

I would only like to point out one thing. Having Newey, who had the time to play with Aston Martin Valkyrie and unsealed (i.e. open, without skirts) ground effect floor, who perfected this, was a distinct advantage for Red Bull. They have perfected a floor design that relies on diffuser performance, rather than floor. This is obviously lower peak-downforce level, but a stable one, less prone to bouncing, able to utilize rake and with high rear-ride-height it can ensure excellent low-speed-corner-exit traction.

This is not the first time mid-season rule change hurt Ferrari, it has happened for more than 10 years now... Massive hit was change to tyre compounds in 2013 which was a massive favour to Red Bull (who couldn't get their head around first compounds), massive hit with engine power in 2019 and now this... Obviously, things are highly political and as a non-british team Ferrari is not welcome as F1 Champion.

It's also highly likely season 2023 will see RB dominance and it's hard not to see this continue in 24 and 25... I was hoping this might change eventually, but it's obvious they won't. F1 died as a sport a while ago, not it's only a show business.

Woah. I thought the tyre changes hurt everyone, except Merc that had a secret tyre test?

[hollus]

Team politics in the team threads, please.

Thanks.

[Andi76]

......
Finally i want to say again that my theory about how the Aero-Philosophy/Concept of the F1-75 was corrupted my be wrong completely or wrong partwise. So please correct me if i am wrong and maybe there is someone with more knowledge about Venturi-Tunnels who has a better explaination.

I think this is more about the 15mm raising the floor edge for next year than TD39. I am no aero expert, but with the higher edges there will be more leakage, more air passing under the car and thus more air to be evacuated by the diffuser. This will place more importance on the flow over the floor to the diffuser to improve diffuser efficiency. The micropod and (to a lesser extend) the RB pods do maximize the flow over the floor to the diffuser. The Ferrari design seems more about managing the flow around the rear wheels, with reduced emphasis on the flow to the diffuser.

Please shoot holes in the above and correct me if my understanding is wrong. I'd love to know if there is any sense in it.

Ferrari with its "low-roof"-tunnel designed a floor that makes maximum use of ground effect. TD39 and of course raising of the floor edges reduces the ground effect. A team like Red Bull, that developed a floor with a "high-roof" is not as dependant on the ground effect as more downforce gets produced from the diffuser. Because of that both, TD39(higher ride heights=less ground effect) and raising the floor edges(again - less ground effect)gives a big advantage to a team that is less dependant on ground effect.

You are partly right with the sidepod design, but Red Bulls sidepod design does both, leading air over the top of the diffuser and also managing the airflow around the wheels. Ferraris philosophy is totally different. It manages the airflow around the tyres, and maximises the performance of the rear- and beamwing assembly to drive the floor. This is superior to drive the floor than air over the diffuser. But TD39 has probably changed that, as it changed the drag-ratio of the rear/beamwing assembly as i explained. And now it is probably not a superior solution any more.

[SirBastianVettel]

It seems that Ferrari will bring a decent aerodynamic upgrade package beside the Monza specific low downforce wing.

[Andi76]

Some weird comments here, they seem to be trying to fit circumstances to some underlaying narrative, some bordering on conspiracy theories!

1. The Ferrari has porpoised all season long, the Red Bull has not. TD39 hasn't changed either cars behaviour here. Mercedes largely got on top of bouncing and porpoising after changes made at the Spanish GP.

2. Ferrari has been falling behind pace wise as the year has gone on. Hungary, like Monaco a circuit that should have suited their cars traits did not, they had OK one lap pace, but rubbish race pace and degradation. This race was prior to TD39.

3. If this was all about showbiz, why would the FIA/F1 Group write the TD39 rules to spoil the show? A Red Bull v Ferrari battle is much more showbiz than one team dominating. As per 2021, an exciting battle to the end of the year is the what the owners and FIA want.

Unfortunately, this was probably Ferraris best chance of a title, Red Bull are far more on top of performance development and race strategy.

The Ferrari hasn't porpoised for a long time. I watched hours of onboard videos. Porpoising returned just recently. Also Mercedes had porpoising long after the Spanish GP. They had massive porpoising in Monaco and extremely in Baku and also in Canada. They still "porpoise", but only minor porpoising. But anyway - it was certainly not at Spain when they got on top of it.

Its also wrong that Ferrari " has been falling behind pace wise" as the year has gone on. The F1-75 was the fastest car untill Spa. And there is no need to discuss that. Thats a fact. Formula 1 makes analysis on that every race, based on data. And untill Spa the Ferrari was the fastest car.

You are right about Hungary. But TD39 already had its influence there, as Ferrari introduced changes on the car necessary for TD39. Because of that its also not correct that RB were far more on top of developement. At least not untill TD39 had an impact about the philosophies of the cars and their performance.

[Andi76]

I was thinking a lot about this post and the latest information i got about Ferraris sudden performance loss. Should i share it or better do not say anything at all, as its a very delicate piece of information but also one that lacks deeper technical details. But as i really think it is very important and comes from reliable sources, i decided to share it.

Thank you for sharing this Andi, it makes a lot of sense.

I would only like to point out one thing. Having Newey, who had the time to play with Aston Martin Valkyrie and unsealed (i.e. open, without skirts) ground effect floor, who perfected this, was a distinct advantage for Red Bull. They have perfected a floor design that relies on diffuser performance, rather than floor. This is obviously lower peak-downforce level, but a stable one, less prone to bouncing, able to utilize rake and with high rear-ride-height it can ensure excellent low-speed-corner-exit traction.

This is not the first time mid-season rule change hurt Ferrari, it has happened for more than 10 years now... Massive hit was change to tyre compounds in 2013 which was a massive favour to Red Bull (who couldn't get their head around first compounds), massive hit with engine power in 2019 and now this... Obviously, things are highly political and as a non-british team Ferrari is not welcome as F1 Champion.

It's also highly likely season 2023 will see RB dominance and it's hard not to see this continue in 24 and 25... I was hoping this might change eventually, but it's obvious they won't. F1 died as a sport a while ago, not it's only a show business.

Thank you very much. I also think that Newey was a distinct advantage. As was Rory Byrne for Ferrari. But unfortunately Rory "only" helped with the design of the F1-75, not helping to solve the problems Ferrari is facing throughout the season.