2022 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

This forum contains threads to discuss teams themselves. Anything not technical about the cars, including restructuring, performances etc belongs here.
Xyz22
Xyz22
123
Joined: 16 Feb 2022, 20:05

Re: 2022 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

Post

Alakshendra wrote:
12 Sep 2022, 11:36
Xyz22 wrote:
12 Sep 2022, 10:21
Verstappen Sainz lap times when they were in free air in the first stint

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/ ... nknown.png

Depressing difference. The TD literally killed the F1 75.
Please can you elaborate, as i am unable to understand how TD impacted us this bad and in which area.
The F1 75 and the RB 18 had very similar performance before the summer break.
Now the RB 18 is completely dominant. What changed since then? For technical details you should ask Vanja #66. I'm only using logic as i'm not an engineer nor an aerodynamicist.. The only thing that changed compared to before is the introduction of the TD 039.

User avatar
Andres125sx
166
Joined: 13 Aug 2013, 10:15
Location: Madrid, Spain

Re: 2022 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

Post

Espresso wrote:
12 Sep 2022, 09:33
Andres125sx wrote:
12 Sep 2022, 08:16
LM10 wrote:
11 Sep 2022, 20:00
Ferrari’s concept is a great execution of the ground-effect rules whereas RBR’s concept is not really following the spirit of ground-effect rules, but the diffuser instead.
Might you elaborate?

LM10 wrote:
11 Sep 2022, 20:00
Bringing rule changes in the middle of the season, but also for the following season and penalizing extremely clever solutions by outstanding engineers is just a scandal in my eyes.
Nothing new I´m afraid. Mass dumper, double diffusers, DAS... the list is pretty long. But in this case, it´s safety what caused this rule change, wich IMHO is a good excuse to prevent drivers being shaked as a cocktail and also unconsistent braking perfomance wich obviously may be very dangerous.

Politics have always played a huge role in F1, but contrary to other rule changes like those I´ve just quoted, this one was based on safety wich justifies the change. Mass dumper or DAS were not, those were much bigger scandals IMHO
But that´s how it is. When MB peeps the rules changes within the season. When any other team peeps against MB the rules gets dispensated and at earliest allowed the next season.
Not to speak about miracles that a rule change communicated on the evening can be implemented in the chassis the next morning...
FIA had the name Ferrari International Assistance....but that had long gone for decades.....
What about DAS?

Shal_Leg16
Shal_Leg16
0
Joined: 25 Mar 2022, 16:20
Location: India

Re: 2022 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

Post

johnny comelately wrote:
12 Sep 2022, 11:44
Have to agree with Peter Windsor's analysis of Monza.
The non-decisionmaking of the strategists/ race engineer is about as amateurish as I have seen (and I have grey hair :wink: )
Immediately much more capex available now....
Fancy throwing to Charles for something that is their job!
Obviously floundering incompetence and/or appeasement, either way a failure.
Sorry, but as professional as Binotto seems he will have to move over for....
Good cars, great drivers....
This is costing World Championships and if there were damages compensation is 20 million euros, 40 million ??
IMHO
peter was spot on about something that i have always observed after the Silverstone & Hungary mess.

They ( strategists ) fooking put everything Plan A, B,C in front of a guy who is already busy driving that car at 300kmph. instead of suggesting best option they act as if look Charles we have this this this ...tell us wht you want. As if he fooking knows all the things happening around him. he knows what max is doing , what tyre, strategy, laptimes he is doing.
Thats stupid.

User avatar
Alakshendra
-2
Joined: 05 Jul 2020, 17:48

Re: 2022 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

Post

Can anyone please explain the impact of new TD specific to which area and how?

and why it affected ferrari bad way and impacted RB in a good way than?

User avatar
organic
1055
Joined: 08 Jan 2022, 02:24
Location: Cambridge, UK

Re: 2022 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

Post

Alakshendra wrote:
12 Sep 2022, 13:45
Can anyone please explain the impact of new TD specific to which area and how?

and why it affected ferrari bad way and impacted RB in a good way than?
Duchessa went into detail but fundamentally it's changed what setup compromises the F1-75 is able to adopt.

The TD not only banned the flexible plank but also introduced tighter limits on plank wear & the Aerodynamic Oscillation Metric (AOM). The AOM limits vertical accelerations, and to not breach the limit that the FIA has set for this AOM teams are having to run the car higher and stiffer. Unfortunately, this is not where the F1-75 is a happy car; it's really compromising them in terms of the slippage of the tyres in race trim & traction both in race and quali trim. More tyre slip and worse traction both contribute to increased tyre wear across race distance which is what the F1-75 is struggling most with since Spa. It's also possible Ferrari were gaining laptime using a flexible plank/floor that was beyond the intention of the rules, but there isn't much evidence for that - only evidence is Binotto had said they need to make changes to their floor to abide by TD039.

RB's car concept operates across a range of ride heights; they don't seem to be affected nearly as much as others by running with larger ground clearance. Furthermore they don't porpoise and seem to deal with bumps better than other teams, so the AOM is not so much of a problem for them. They haven't had to make a big compromise on the new metric. Furthermore it seems they may have not been exploiting anything in regard to flexible plank. So less setup compromise and potentially less rule exploitation of the plank leads to less laptime loss.

The problems that Ferrari experience relating to the TD are ameliorated by low downforce tracks as with less downforce, the F1-75 can run higher and with less downforce whilst also being a bit softer (whilst not breaching the AOM limit). The increased softness that the low downforce allows means less slip and better traction. Still, the F1-75 is not in the same window at Monza as it was prior to the TD, but not as bad. However, at high tracks with more bumps we will most likely see the opposite; the high downforce and bumpiness means triggering the AOM is easier, and so greater compromises in terms of stiffness etc must be made - likely why the car was so weak at Spa relative to the RB who seemingly did not have to compromise at all.

Then we may also speculate that some of the laptime lost is that Ferrari have run the engines more conservatively recently due to Austria and the championship being out of sight

Pair these woes for the F1-75 with the largest update to the floor the RB18 received all season at France and you can arrive at the deficit seen recently.

User avatar
Andres125sx
166
Joined: 13 Aug 2013, 10:15
Location: Madrid, Spain

Re: 2022 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

Post

organic wrote:
12 Sep 2022, 13:57
Alakshendra wrote:
12 Sep 2022, 13:45
Can anyone please explain the impact of new TD specific to which area and how?

and why it affected ferrari bad way and impacted RB in a good way than?
Duchessa went into detail but fundamentally it's changed what setup compromises the F1-75 is able to adopt.

The TD not only banned the flexible plank but also introduced tighter limits on plank wear & the Aerodynamic Oscillation Metric (AOM). The AOM limits vertical accelerations, and to not breach the limit that the FIA has set for this AOM teams are having to run the car higher and stiffer. Unfortunately, this is not where the F1-75 is a happy car; it's really compromising them in terms of the slippage of the tyres in race trim & traction both in race and quali trim. More tyre slip and worse traction both contribute to increased tyre wear across race distance which is what the F1-75 is struggling most with since Spa. It's also possible Ferrari were gaining laptime using a flexible plank/floor that was beyond the intention of the rules, but there isn't much evidence for that - only evidence is Binotto had said they need to make changes to their floor to abide by TD039.

RB's car concept operates across a range of ride heights; they don't seem to be affected nearly as much as others by running with larger ground clearance. Furthermore they don't porpoise and seem to deal with bumps better than other teams, so the AOM is not so much of a problem for them. They haven't had to make a big compromise on the new metric. Furthermore it seems they may have not been exploiting anything in regard to flexible plank. So less setup compromise and potentially less rule exploitation of the plank leads to less laptime loss.

The problems that Ferrari experience relating to the TD are ameliorated by low downforce tracks as with less downforce, the F1-75 can run higher and with less downforce whilst also being a bit softer (whilst not breaching the AOM limit). The increased softness that the low downforce allows means less slip and better traction. Still, the F1-75 is not in the same window at Monza as it was prior to the TD, but not as bad. However, at high tracks with more bumps we will most likely see the opposite; the high downforce and bumpiness means triggering the AOM is easier, and so greater compromises in terms of stiffness etc must be made - likely why the car was so weak at Spa relative to the RB who seemingly did not have to compromise at all.

Then we may also speculate that some of the laptime lost is that Ferrari have run the engines more conservatively recently due to Austria and the championship being out of sight

Pair these woes for the F1-75 with the largest update to the floor the RB18 received all season at France and you can arrive at the deficit seen recently.
Damn, I can´t upvote this post even when it is one of the most valuable, technical and sensible posts I´ve read in months

User avatar
organic
1055
Joined: 08 Jan 2022, 02:24
Location: Cambridge, UK

Re: 2022 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

Post

https://www.quotidiano.net/blog/turrini ... -14-5.7682

A little article from Duchessa. Says that they will need to take more PU penalties before the end of the year, perhaps at COTA. The problem that caused the PU failures eg Sainz @ Austria remains present, but different operating parameters are being used which offer some benefits.

mzso
mzso
65
Joined: 05 Apr 2014, 14:52

Re: 2022 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

Post

organic wrote:
14 Sep 2022, 13:29
https://www.quotidiano.net/blog/turrini ... -14-5.7682

A little article from Duchessa. Says that they will need to take more PU penalties before the end of the year, perhaps at COTA. The problem that caused the PU failures eg Sainz @ Austria remains present, but different operating parameters are being used which offer some benefits.
So why didn't they fix it? It's been a long time, there's no cost cap for engines, and they're free to implement reliability updates.

SirBastianVettel
SirBastianVettel
13
Joined: 28 Jun 2020, 10:54

Re: 2022 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

Post

mzso wrote:
15 Sep 2022, 11:30
So why didn't they fix it? It's been a long time, there's no cost cap for engines, and they're free to implement reliability updates.
They probably want to make sure the "reliability" fix improves performance as much as possible..

AR3-GP
AR3-GP
365
Joined: 06 Jul 2021, 01:22

Re: 2022 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

Post

organic wrote:
14 Sep 2022, 13:29
https://www.quotidiano.net/blog/turrini ... -14-5.7682

A little article from Duchessa. Says that they will need to take more PU penalties before the end of the year, perhaps at COTA. The problem that caused the PU failures eg Sainz @ Austria remains present, but different operating parameters are being used which offer some benefits.
It was rumored since France that COTA was were the final PU reliability fixes would come.
A lion must kill its prey.

User avatar
deadhead
52
Joined: 08 Apr 2022, 20:24

Re: 2022 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

Post

organic wrote:
12 Sep 2022, 13:57
Alakshendra wrote:
12 Sep 2022, 13:45
Can anyone please explain the impact of new TD specific to which area and how?

and why it affected ferrari bad way and impacted RB in a good way than?
Duchessa went into detail but fundamentally it's changed what setup compromises the F1-75 is able to adopt.

The TD not only banned the flexible plank but also introduced tighter limits on plank wear & the Aerodynamic Oscillation Metric (AOM). The AOM limits vertical accelerations, and to not breach the limit that the FIA has set for this AOM teams are having to run the car higher and stiffer. Unfortunately, this is not where the F1-75 is a happy car; it's really compromising them in terms of the slippage of the tyres in race trim & traction both in race and quali trim. More tyre slip and worse traction both contribute to increased tyre wear across race distance which is what the F1-75 is struggling most with since Spa. It's also possible Ferrari were gaining laptime using a flexible plank/floor that was beyond the intention of the rules, but there isn't much evidence for that - only evidence is Binotto had said they need to make changes to their floor to abide by TD039.

RB's car concept operates across a range of ride heights; they don't seem to be affected nearly as much as others by running with larger ground clearance. Furthermore they don't porpoise and seem to deal with bumps better than other teams, so the AOM is not so much of a problem for them. They haven't had to make a big compromise on the new metric. Furthermore it seems they may have not been exploiting anything in regard to flexible plank. So less setup compromise and potentially less rule exploitation of the plank leads to less laptime loss.

The problems that Ferrari experience relating to the TD are ameliorated by low downforce tracks as with less downforce, the F1-75 can run higher and with less downforce whilst also being a bit softer (whilst not breaching the AOM limit). The increased softness that the low downforce allows means less slip and better traction. Still, the F1-75 is not in the same window at Monza as it was prior to the TD, but not as bad. However, at high tracks with more bumps we will most likely see the opposite; the high downforce and bumpiness means triggering the AOM is easier, and so greater compromises in terms of stiffness etc must be made - likely why the car was so weak at Spa relative to the RB who seemingly did not have to compromise at all.

Then we may also speculate that some of the laptime lost is that Ferrari have run the engines more conservatively recently due to Austria and the championship being out of sight

Pair these woes for the F1-75 with the largest update to the floor the RB18 received all season at France and you can arrive at the deficit seen recently.
Nice summery.

Shame because they designed a really good car around the initial regulations.

This is probably going to harm the 2023 car as well...

AR3-GP
AR3-GP
365
Joined: 06 Jul 2021, 01:22

Re: 2022 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

Post

deadhead wrote:
16 Sep 2022, 20:33
organic wrote:
12 Sep 2022, 13:57
Alakshendra wrote:
12 Sep 2022, 13:45
Can anyone please explain the impact of new TD specific to which area and how?

and why it affected ferrari bad way and impacted RB in a good way than?
Duchessa went into detail but fundamentally it's changed what setup compromises the F1-75 is able to adopt.

The TD not only banned the flexible plank but also introduced tighter limits on plank wear & the Aerodynamic Oscillation Metric (AOM). The AOM limits vertical accelerations, and to not breach the limit that the FIA has set for this AOM teams are having to run the car higher and stiffer. Unfortunately, this is not where the F1-75 is a happy car; it's really compromising them in terms of the slippage of the tyres in race trim & traction both in race and quali trim. More tyre slip and worse traction both contribute to increased tyre wear across race distance which is what the F1-75 is struggling most with since Spa. It's also possible Ferrari were gaining laptime using a flexible plank/floor that was beyond the intention of the rules, but there isn't much evidence for that - only evidence is Binotto had said they need to make changes to their floor to abide by TD039.

RB's car concept operates across a range of ride heights; they don't seem to be affected nearly as much as others by running with larger ground clearance. Furthermore they don't porpoise and seem to deal with bumps better than other teams, so the AOM is not so much of a problem for them. They haven't had to make a big compromise on the new metric. Furthermore it seems they may have not been exploiting anything in regard to flexible plank. So less setup compromise and potentially less rule exploitation of the plank leads to less laptime loss.

The problems that Ferrari experience relating to the TD are ameliorated by low downforce tracks as with less downforce, the F1-75 can run higher and with less downforce whilst also being a bit softer (whilst not breaching the AOM limit). The increased softness that the low downforce allows means less slip and better traction. Still, the F1-75 is not in the same window at Monza as it was prior to the TD, but not as bad. However, at high tracks with more bumps we will most likely see the opposite; the high downforce and bumpiness means triggering the AOM is easier, and so greater compromises in terms of stiffness etc must be made - likely why the car was so weak at Spa relative to the RB who seemingly did not have to compromise at all.

Then we may also speculate that some of the laptime lost is that Ferrari have run the engines more conservatively recently due to Austria and the championship being out of sight

Pair these woes for the F1-75 with the largest update to the floor the RB18 received all season at France and you can arrive at the deficit seen recently.
Nice summery.

Shame because they designed a really good car around the initial regulations.

This is probably going to harm the 2023 car as well...
Not neccesarily. The main problem with this season is that the FIA changed the regulations after most teams had spent the bulk of their development budget for the '22 cars. Even if Ferrari knew exactly how to fix the current issues, they wouldn't be able to bring any fundamental changes until '23 at the earliest due to the budget cap. Once again the FIA bowed to the political angling of one team, and it's caught out other teams.
A lion must kill its prey.

johnny comelately
johnny comelately
110
Joined: 10 Apr 2015, 00:55
Location: Australia

Re: 2022 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

Post

A Ferrari has a high vis weight reduction step for Singapore...

Schippke
Schippke
12
Joined: 01 Sep 2020, 04:00
Location: Australia

Re: 2022 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

Post

johnny comelately wrote:
01 Oct 2022, 12:17
A Ferrari has a high vis weight reduction step for Singapore...
Source?

... or is this a joke with regards to their special livery run last weekend?

Shal_Leg16
Shal_Leg16
0
Joined: 25 Mar 2022, 16:20
Location: India

Re: 2022 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

Post

Lets Gooooo . Come on 😎